MK, It's true, the Ten Commandments do not forbid living off the labor of indentured servants and slaves.

I'm still trying to figure out what French refugees have to do with socialism . - ? Help me out here.

Why, that's so sweeeet! You must know I live for your admiration.

"He writes his plays for the ages--the ages between five and twelve." - - - George Nathan (about George Bernard Shaw)

There's that 'drug obsession' thing again - LOL - From someone who may actually know a bit about that sort of activity.

Simon, Where else can you get the straight-party-line 'dope' (LOL) on some of the ideology driving this country over the cliff? If nothing else, it's, well, humorous to hear the diatribes of the true believers as they try to denigrate anyone not in lock-goose-step with the likes of Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand by calling them 'lazy' and 'socialist'. I mean, 'liberal' has become one of the 7 unspeakable 'words' in this country. Look, it's always better to know what's going on than not. Would you let the local sanctimonious preacher-hypocrite browbeat you into submission (in this day and age)? I'm guessing not.

What's funny is that I saw a quote by John Kenneth Galbraith on the 'parent' site (to this site) the other day and it struck me as a huge incongruity (that he should merit mention) to much of what's posted here.

Dick, FW; It's supposed to be a euphemistic reference to 'get off your ass(es)'. Soooo quaint! Soooo 'insightful'. LOL

Evidently there are two schools of thought, Libertarian and Socialist, and nothing in between. It's a time-tested strategy of war to 'frame' debates/perceived differences/'ethnicities'/'religious differences in that manner. It always works on most members of any society.

Simon, Didn't you get the memo from the 'International Society for Individual Liberty: Libertarian Activism'? All the talking points are in it. Can you sing "Surrey with the Fanatic Fringe on top"?
Some of the 'Approved' positions are:
Medical 'Feedom'
Education 'Feedom'
Environmental 'Feedom'
The Genius Of Ayn Rand

We now know what Bush and Cheney mean by 'Feedom'. Iraq and Haliburton will be better off when there's 'Feedom'.

As a playwright, Shaw almost instinctively leaned towards exaggeration and hyperbole in the interest of keeping the attention of the audience. All stage presence, including the lines, must, by nature of the venue, be exaggerated and/or romanticized. This 'quote' is no exception. It's good theater though. David must yearn to be a playwright:

"The People’s Liberation Army engages in systematic harvesting and marketing of human organs extracted from executed prisoners."

David, stop preaching.

Simon, RE: "I have been on this list for a few years and have only seen your name in the last few weeks, so perhaps you may wish to withold assumptions when commenting on more than the quote at hand."

Clearly, Simon, when making assumptions, you must, unlike the choir in the cabal, take your place in the hierarchy according to how long you've been 'seen' on this site by 'longtimers'. Tsk, tsk, tsk. For shame that you should not take your place as second-class assumer as befits your clearly inferior intellect, low standing, and lack of philosophical concordance (which concordance would, naturally, confer free licence to assume all over the place, should you chose it as an option at a time convenient to yourself - hint, hint, wink, wink, hint, hint, wink, wink) with those who were here first. Please, oh please, won't you prostrate yourself to the 'elders' and not do what the 'good' newcomers are cheered on for? A hauteur cheer please!

Simon, I think you'll like this from Bartleby.com:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." -
SAMUEL JOHNSON.—James Boswell, Life of Johnson, entry for Friday, April 7, 1775, p. 615 (1970).

“In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first.”—Ambrose Bierce, The Devil’s Dictionary, at entry for patriotism, The Collected Writings of Ambrose Bierce, p. 323 (1946, reprinted 1973).

H. L. Mencken added this to Johnson’s dictum: “But there is something even worse: it is the first, last, and middle range of fools.”—The World, New York City, November 7, 1926, p. 3E.

Pssst, Simon ... not so loud.
You know as well as I do that if you're not in lockstep with the minarchists, (check out 'uncle Miltie') you're a 'socialistic, communistic, anti-republican, anti-constitutionalistic, pro-'slavery', pro-'forced compassion', pro-'forced education', pro-'thievery' threat to 'our' belief system.

Well, let's see - what are we still good at producing? Automobiles - no, television sets - no, small appliances - no, linens, towels, bedding - no, clothing - no, fabrics - no, telephones - no, food - yes, lumber - some, ceramics including tile - no, portland cement - yes, vaccines - no, boats - no, tools - a few, and so on. Our space vehicles are like trucks fresh from the dust bowl days. Look around your home and count the things made in the USA - good luck. You may think the majority of drugs made by US companies are made in the US - no. Oh yeah, there are armaments. Are we still good at making them? Yes - with foreign parts specced by us. We can, however, still produce a Big Mac - with some imported help. Our major 'strength' during the last decade was intellectual property. Have you checked out the school system lately? It's not promising. Our national debt? That's (mostly) how much of the US other nations own. Hell, we're in good shape!

Classy David! - and so well thought out.

Anon, USA; perhaps you've not noticed that this site is named 'Liberty-Tree' and not 'Exclusive-Self-Congratulatory-Mutual-Admiration-For-The-True-Believers-Only-Tree' - or did you miss that tiny subtlety?

Thanks for the clarification Simon. But really - 'Vote Early - Vote Often??' LOL Oh well, the absurdity of the 'quote' kept me from 'rating' it at all.

Simon; "... preposterous position ..." - "Please show me one of these, bureaucrats politicians and social workers who believes such a thing." . . . "Do you think George Bush and his neo-cons want you to think for yourself and act in your own interest?"

Which position is the 'preposterous' one? No really, I'm not clear as to what you mean (in the indicated parts, that is).

Anon, USA; Perhaps you could define 'liberty' as well as 'freedom' for us. I expect you'd like everyone to march lockstep with everyone else North Korean style to demonstrate how 'liberated' and 'free' everyone is.

Of course the empire as a whole lasted over 500 years and the eastern half lasted almost 1500 years. If our nation ever becomes that old we'll be able to compare the effectiveness of the two systems.

Ken, - "Government robs us not only of our wealth (to buy votes), but of our opportunity to demonstrate our compassion for those in need".

How easy and convenient it must be for you to be 'robbed' of your ability "to demonstrate (your) compassion for those in need". Perhaps that's the definition of a 'good member of society' - a definition you're clearly familiar with.

Compassion is using Fundie pubs to buy votes.

Ayn Rand falls into a category of ideologues subscribing to Minarchism.

If you like the direction our 'corporocracy' is heading, you'll love Ayn Rand. I suspect her Russian roots had something to do with her somewhat extreme and romantic outlook.

"Short and sweet" and simple.

For Rand, capitalism, the system of laissez-faire, is the only moral system.

I submit that Rand's posture is as 'simple', absolute, immoral, and haughty (though 'simply' alluring) as the postures of her philosophical 'laissez-faire' predecessors. It does make for interesting drama in any event.

Auberon Herbert was one of the 19th century's English 'radical individualists' who was, to the exclusion of any possible restraints, completely committed to the laissez-faire/'Natural Rights' school of thought. Laissez-faire/'Natural Rights' is what's giving us (among other things) our current gas prices coupled with record oil company profits - like it did during the Rockefeller/Standard Oil Reign - nice! I mean it's 'nice' to be so aristocratic and insulated from the general population that you can formulate this sort of philosophy with impunity and gain some 'standing' in the community of your peers while justifying your aristocracy. It was the 'Age of Empire' and this sort of posture suited the upper crust 'quite nicely, thank you very much'.

Herbert himself is unlikely to have ever provided his own 'dinners and breakfasts' since his 'class' invariably had servants to do that sort of thing for them. I know my grandparents and great-grandparents did, but then, my great grandfather was a Lutheran minister who aspired to all of the 'charms' of the Austro-Hungarian Empire - i.e., that would be a haughty tyranny over the 'underclass' who 'knew no better anyway'. I'd personally be loath to recommend Herbert for a job as 'chef' - even at McDonald's.

Though Herbert's discourses (essays) are very compelling (given his selective, self-serving premises), he, personally had little contact or experience with the 'boots on the ground' functioning of the lower echelon of society other than to observe them from a comfortable distance and decry their 'laziness' from the comfort of his library.

Where, oh where, have I heard this relentless, tired song before - LOL?