Carlton misses the mark again by ignoring the quote that says liberty must be tempered or taken along with Wisdom and Virtue and he bastardizes the quote into something about "the wisdom of Liberty and the virtue of liberty" that is not what the quote is saying at all. Sounds like Carlton has been studying the Limbaugh school of BS. And Mike chimes in with "great sentiment". What a bunch of intellectual losers you guys really are!

Kennedy Paraphrased: Somethings are worth living and dying for. Worship of self, and greed are not the most precious of values.

The question I guess Carlton is reverence for what? Some like those who don't pay taxes and go to jail I assume have reverence for one thing SELF. For what one has reverence for is paramount. Do you have reverence for your family, town, province, nation, and government etcetera. Do have reverence for the society in which you live. I respectfully suggest that by the comments of Mike and Archer they have no reverence of awe for anything but the concept of SELF. My neighborhood is going through a great test of dichotomy. We are trying to include our homes into a Historic Preservation District. Inclusion means we will cooperate with each other and with a Commission on any architectural, landscaping, painting and other changes to the exteriors of our homes for the purpose of maintaing an historic looking 1890's neighborhood. Now 15% of the folk are livid that they can be pressured in this way. They wish to have the "freedom" to do anything they wish. I suggest that their reverence is to SELF and not to Historic Preservation or to the wishes of their neighbors.

Cal you miss the point, no one is forcing. The point is if the majority of people can not make a choice and have their views be dominant we are not free. It does not matter if the majority is liberal or conservative, if they are estopped then none of us are free. I think you are mistaken in some of your assetions Judith but right with your sentiment in others. This site and many commentators emphasis something call "liberty" but there other things needed for successful living things like commitment to honor, community and things that also seved to make us great.

Right founded on reverence I think means respect for others. The two J's above show in their responses they have none. Polls show that the majority of the American people think Obama is the reasonable one in his speeches and his performance. Reasonableness is a sign of a persons respect and reverence also, in my opinion. Obama won this election and is leading this country for one reason and one reason only because he has a brain and our politics is based on let the best man win. The alter-hero Sarah Palin said the other night while speaking the Tea Partiers, "Under Obama the nation and the world (and I guess she also implied the universe) has lost faith in the hope and dream of Alaska". I guess she meant to say America but had forgotten to write America on her hand.

Apparently in Jim K's twisted world of logic we already are not free, at least we are not free to be liberals whatever that is! If having opinions and views and coming together in the public arena to discuss them and decide them is anyones definition of freedom then Jims harangue against it is just a definition of dictatorship. As far as the quote the American experience at politics and philosophy and freedom has been great and has greatly influenced the world but let us not become jingoistic about it. As the Conservative President of France said after Obama's victory, "What a great country is America."

Okay okay granted that there were some left wing fools that thought Obama was going to walk out of Iraq and Afganistan. And there were and are right wing fools who think he is a socialist (hell they don't even know what the word means) but he has fooled them all, He is a bloomin PRAGMATIST and that is exactly what this country needs. We need to stop voting and rooting for ideologues and start voting for people who have a brain. That leaves out the Palins, the Mikes and the Archers etc and all of there ilk.

Yeah and Mike has his head up in it also.

J your idea about books is not a bad one but Anonymous does have a point. There are a lot of famous dime store trashy authors. A guy named Laffer became famous for "the Laffer curve" and wrote a trashy tome on economics. Reagan was gullible and desroyed our economy due to his worship of this clown.

Sounds like the simple, neat five page Republican Health Care plan. I am so happy that Anonymous is here now to tell the truth on others. Just keeping repeating your post Anon. Obama nailed the asses at there Winter Retreat. He told them that their simple, neat sound bites may make for good politics with the simple folk but they are simply and purely WRONG. Speaking of asses did y'all hear Sarah at the Tea Party thell them asses about how "the world since and because of Obama has lost hope in ALASKA". She is not only one but has her head up it.

Hoffer would appear to contradict Mr. Virtue John Locke in the other days quote. Locke would appear to say that once a young man is an ass he seldom recovers from it. Hoffer one would think would offer the juvenile or "young man" a break but hold the adult responsible. I think Hoffer is here a straighter thinker than Mr. Virtue-Locke. The only guy I think of here is Russ Limbaugh, but he makes 400 million being an ass so I guess it is really the guys that like him are the real asses.

Mike he is here being discriminatory toward youth and males. Is virture lost by older folk or women folk more easily recovered than with young men? Locke is showing tremendous bias in this quote and I think has shown his own lack of virtue.

I posted some info on tax court prison cases at a different quote. I found and read about the Wesley Snipes case, he got three years, and the Berry family case if father and daughters they got 21 years combined. If you like this kind of stuff, have a go at it. Showing Archer will not help him at all. Of course he thinks all of his friends, neighbors and fellow Americans are idiots for paying 3 trillion a year in taxes, wonder what he thinks of sales taxes, real estate taxes etcetera. Is it really fair to call someone like Archer, Wesley Snipes, and the Berry's fellow Americans, while others of our ilk are getting killed in places like Iraq and Afghanistan he bitches about a little bit of filthy lucre to support them. What a creep!

PS: Another case in which you may like to indulge yourself is the Berry family case in California. The father and two daughters got a total of 21 years in jail and orders to pay the US Treasury 10's of millions. Have a great time and a greater day.

Mike et al if you enjoy reading about criminal prosecutions in Tax Cases I just googled "Tax Cases that went to prison" and got a whole plethora of interesting reading. For one Wesley Snipes got three years. If you actually enjoy this kind of thing go read and have fun. I for one have much more interesting things to do.

Give me a name of a tax prisoner, I would love to research his case. Court Cases as you should know are public arenas. Any tax prisoners case is readily available in the public record. Fess up Mike. And under what logic do you claim that tax prisoners are political prisoners. We can have any political view we want as long as we do commit illegal acts. If one believes that religion and chruces are wrong that may be a politcal view. But to burn down churces will land you in jail. Same with tax law, okay be against it but just obey the law and you and I will be fine. Being against a law does not mean you are free to disobey it without consequence.

Stay in your own home, talk to know one, keep your face to the wall seems to be the methodology espoused above. Fear of others and fear of truth is what y'all are about.

An intelligent man so says the law knows whether or not he has income. If you are living, breathing, eating, clothing and housing yourself you either have income or assets from which you can support yourself. Don't worry if you are dead you will have no tax liablity, your estate may if it continues to earn income after your death and before it is distributed to your heirs. I am not talking like a tax man Archer I am only talking about the law and common sense.

Mike so more info concerning your Doctor associate. The reason I class him as a hole is because the dumbest person, (children excused until they first get caught) knows that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Now how a man got to be a Doctor and be this stupid is beyond me, How you could associate with such stupidity is much easier to understand. Another tax case you may be interested in went like this. The "taxpayer" or should we say "non taxpayer" told the Judge, "Your honor this Agent just made these figures up" at which remark the Judge replied "Well that is better than what you do, you did nothing." Making up fiugures or best guesses from available information (even if not all information) is the way the IRS caught and incarcerated Al Capone. When a man lives in a million dollar home and drives several Cadillacs but files no tax returns and claims no income, do you think he might just be a liar and a fraud. Be advised if you don't want to pay taxes make as much money as you want to but just don't spend, live on the streets or in a tent. If getting away with tax fraud is your idea of something to do then live like a bum. Hoping this helps your twisted thinking, Regards da Waffler.

Mike the IRS has no idea what people owe. Under law people are responsible for determing that. If they fail to do so, the IRS can and does take its best shot. I suggest only God knows the absolute truth about the accounting intricacies of computing the final, absolute, corrrect tax. Anyone and everyone may and do overlook this item of deduction or income. The Agent was mistaken in his answer. He should have said to the best of his knowledge and belief. (Different Agents may arrive at different answers, since accounting records are diverse and there is some skill and human effort, time and energy in determing the final answer.)Remember this,that anytime a change is made to the calculation a new three year statute of limitation period starts running so that the "Good Doctor" (personally I think he sounds like an a## hole) can make additional changes to his tax report. Once the three years elapse without any changes then the Doctor and the IRS are estopped from making changes. The only caveat to the three year rule would be if fraud was committed. The definition of fraud fits very well with the quote: Fraud is lying.

PS: For further discussion and analysis why did Locke say "if lost in a young man it is seldom recovered". Does he purport to say that older men who loose virtue can recover it more easily than a younger man. In final analysis maybe this is really a lousy quote saying nothing. It implies a certain admiration for virtuosness from childhood forward, but fails in so many other ways.

Logan-Boy, you have no argument with me. I repeated the quote citation that said Locke was "the most often quoted non-biblical writer". Nice to see you blogging around on this site again. I stand by my posts, I stand by my undersatnding reached with J Carlton and I am glad I got some thinking going on in the minds of you others.

Name one Mike!

This answers Mike's reservations above. While free speech is messy it gets the job done better than any other way.

Mike doesn't want people to know things that is why he is against the Tele. Mike what do you think about the Net, you against it also? You might consider living in China. Now O is going to get the Repubs to visit the light of day on TV discussing Health Care Reform. Big shots are held accountable in a democracy even on TV. TV is only helpful in a free and democratic society, not in the type of society Mike would prefer.