EGL complains that quoting the Founders isn't relevant wisdom, which demonstrates his lack of historical understanding of economics and govt tendencies. It was BECAUSE the Fathers knew their own world history so well that they formed the govt and concepts of 1776 & 1789. They were trying to steer us away from that constantly repeated history of despotism and violence. It has not worked, leaving us a return to the same pre-1776 problems of rampant socialism, heavily centralized govt, military adventurism, fiat currencies which only enrich bankers and ennable despots to spend our wealth on their own visions of grandeur. No, EGL, what the Founders thought is still HIGHLY relevant for today, for, as Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the sun..."

The scam of govt and war is ancient, and we never learn the deception of the powerful. Read the following, forget the religious aspect and just see it as historical proof this scam was exposed 3000 yr ago and we STILL won't listen: 1 Sam 8:6-18 "But when (Israel) said, 'Give us a king [king, Congress, premier, president, call it what you will] to lead us,' (God told Samuel to) 'warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.' ...'This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. [Oh that Congress would be so kind as to take just a tenth!] Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

The scam of govt and war is ancient, and we never learn the deception of the powerful. Read the following, forget the religious aspect and just see it as historical proof this scam was exposed 3000 yr ago and we STILL won't listen: 1 Sam 8:6-18 "But when (Israel) said, 'Give us a king [king, Congress, premier, president, call it what you will] to lead us,' (God told Samuel to) 'warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.' ...'This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. [Oh that Congress would be so kind as to take just a tenth!] Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

The scam of govt and war is ancient, and we never learn the deception of the powerful. Read the following, forget the religious aspect and just see it as historical proof this scam was exposed 3000 yr ago and we STILL won't listen: 1 Sam 8:6-18 "But when (Israel) said, 'Give us a king [king, Congress, premier, president, call it what you will] to lead us,' (God told Samuel to) 'warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.' ...'This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. [Oh that Congress would be so kind as to take just a tenth!] Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

The engine of socialism is human covetousness. Anonymous from Reston, when will you ever accept that what is mine shouldn't be subject to confiscation in order to give to someone else based on your mob-vote? Right now I can't afford medical insurance because you are taking the money to provide medical benefits to welfare recipients. How absurd, how criminal.

The absence of forebearance and civility by some in this discussion demonstrates why we have guns for self-defense in the first place. One has to go to Iraq to find better-executed assaults.