We seek to control each other in reference to traffic laws, spitting on the sidewalkm, abusing children etcetera. These things are not liberalism or statism. We control how many deer an individual may kill. These controls are good for everybody. Some of your fellow knuckle-walkers Archer are killing and exterminating mountain gorillas in Africa. I guess you defend their rights to freedom against all comers also.

The difference Mike is that you think this government (your state and mine and the U S) has overstepped its authority. I don't. And you think it is okay to take up private arms against government. I don't. I think it is okay in a democracy to throw the bums out. Democracy is "government by discussion" nothing more and nothing less, plus guaranteed rights.

Ah! some agreement but I don't think you get all of my drift, Mike. I think it would be more honest to say "we seek to control each other" rather than saying "the state does this". It is a cop out and counter productive to say "the state" did this or that. It is we that do it to each other. And we can change things. The changes may not be to everyone's liking but we can still change things. We basically cannot win a fight against a shadowy entity called the "state" but know our adversary when it is other individuals just like us. The state is not outside of us and alien to us it is us.

Only in a machellian Kingdom would this quote be useful. In a state of laws, and a state "of, by and for" the people there is no need or place for self-imposed restrictions. The state or government is absolutely restricted from doing anything unless it is authorized by law and the people "the sovereign".

I agree Dan he is not expressing this well or completly. I think he is referring to the "Green Acres" syndrome. Remember "green acres is the place for me", and Ava Gabor chimed in, "city life is the place for me". The dichotomy of city versus country living has been discussed in poetry and prose down through the ages. The simple fact is that the more we live in proximity to each other the more law, organization and socializing common practices we have. His discussion however does explain the gun issue. Country and farm dwellers think of owning guns and killing deer as the most natural thing in the world. City dwellers (some) think it is an evil stupid practice.

We need to change our use of language it seems to me. We talk about "the state" as if it is somthing real, It is only an etheral concept, alien to and outside of us. Many see it as some kind of sci-fi being with a life and ability to grow on its own. We thus should change the above quote in my opinion to read, "we impose upon each other a system of interdictions and commands". Some agree and accept these interdictions and commands more than do some others. When enough of us do not accept them we have power to change them. Take deer hunting licensing and quotas as an example.

I meant to say that Greek society was built on slavery.

Archer as usual you fail to read and you grasp at any bombastic statement or idea that will serve your preexisting uneducated point of view. I did not say the US is the preeminet socialist country in the world. I said IF the statement is true. I don't believe that the statement is true. Was Greek society with its' leisurely life for the philosphers a socialist society. I don't think so? Was Rome where some 1/3 or 2/3 (which ever it was) of the folk slaves a socialist society, I don't think so. Do we consider Swedes who build our Volvos and Saabs slaves I don't think so. I think we need to take a break or break with some of the words we use that hinder real thinking. I would say that most on this site who see the word "Socialist" or any of its. derivatives have a visceral gut reaction and loss of ability to even think. If it is so damn bad should we not as a nation stop dealing with these Swedish, Chineese and other devils. Many will brand as "socialist" in study done my any university, any country that has a policy different than ours. It is time for us to grow up Archer, why not let it start with you, kind Sir.

If this quote is correct then America has been and is the preeminet socialist country in the world. We were birthed as a nation out of slavery, Carnegie built his steel and wealth out of a form of slavery (just ask his daughter) and we now import illegals to slave for us and make a few slave holders rich while we suffer. Our US Congress building was built by slavery-socialism. Are you okay Logan? Yesterday you said "democracy and republic are synonymous". Today well I don't know. Were you telling the truth yesterday or today? I think the answer lies in whether you think abstractly or realistically. The "democracies of the western world" have never allwoed rape etcetera, so why do you worry about such an abstractio?. Democracy is a recognition of equality, common sense, and the Golden Rule. If I can rape your wife then you could rape mine. The fact that we are in equilibrium generally keeps all of us in check. A few stupid people over step this natural state of equilibrium. That is why we have cops, judges and jails. We should all pause and give thanks, I guess, that the United States of America is the lowest taxed of the industrialized nations and wonder why the higher taxes nations and the "communist" nation of China are beating our socks off. And wonder why the dollar is almost worthless while the Euro soars. I don't believe that the residents of places like Sweden feel like slaves and it is considered by many to be the most socialistic of our free world allies.

Apparently ol' Ben is talking about shortening the work week and returning to the 4th commandment of the bible. I am acquainted with Sabbath keepers and yes they do find it refreshing to do no work one day a week. The Sabbath for these folks is kept from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

Two ways to look at this one. First it can be seen as shallow and simplistic and taken by many bombastically or as a rallying cry to arms against socialism, secondly it could be said to be absolutely true and thank God therefore for socialism. Socialism as practiced in most places requires the giving up of some property rights. Without this essential characteristic we would have no beaches to go to, no roads to drive on, no national or state forests and no national parks. In speaking of socialism and democracy one writer said this; "Visitors to Copenhagen and Stockholm are impressed not only by their tidiness but also by the absence of slums and other signs of poverty. and the co-operatives of Denmark and Sweden have received much praise as the "middle way" between welfare socialism and uncontrolled economic individualism." Ms Rand as an immigrant from communism was understandably impressed by the rights of the individual to own property in America especially the sky scrapers that she loved so much. The fact that she was so awestruck probably blinded her to a more circumspet understanding of the needs for some socialism or some "middle way". Have some pity on the poor girl. If we had only private property rights and no common areas (like village greens, parks etc) we would have to sit in or on our own property and have no place to otherwise go. Scary thought isn't it?

I have accomplished a helluva a lot Logan. The stupidity that "the United States is a republic not a democracy" is repeated throughout this society. I encounter it every day. I will keep asking people to be a little deeper and circumspect about and avoid their BS theories. I am so glad that you are on board. A great improvement in your knowledge and thinking.

The "state" has gotten a bum rap. I know I have always had warm feelings for the Pennsylvania Turnpike, Penn State and state fairs nationwide and numerous other trappings of what society, in the form of "the state" has brought forth.

DEMOCRACY: My college history book "A History of Civilization" by Brinton, Christopher, and Wolff, Prentice Hall has the following chapters XXI "The Western Democracies in the 19th Century" XXVIII "The Democracies, 1919-1939." The former chapter starts with these words, "We shall now trace the background history of the major self-governing western states: Great Britain, France, Italy, and the United States. These are now all democracies; and though they have all had their moments-sometimes years-of lapsing from democratic standards, they are all, as the twentieth-century world goes, "old democracies." Now this book was copywrited in 1955 way before the current political correctness foisted on us by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and aided and abetted by the non-thinking Logans (aka Mr. Academia), Archers (Mr. Fed Reserve), and Mikes (Mr.Victimless Crime) of the world. These dictators of language. Archer says he will take over the world by redefining language. Not unlike Hitler who wanted to burn all of the books and kill all the smart guys. Well I am holding on to my history book and it will always be a defense against your lying ways and political correctness. We are again lapsing it appears with guys like the above mentioned being so gullible. But I like Lincoln have faith that we shall have a new birth of freedom and "government of, by, and for the people" shall not perish, at least not at their hands.

An overly helpful person may have an exagerated view of themselves and a low opinion of others thinking they all need their help. I am struggling with a family issue of a doting mother and in return a doting son who do not know how to live their own lives. Doting is defined as "Extravagantly or foolishly fond."

We see things from our own perspective. I believe he was saying this out of love, just as universal education is out of love. Sometimes love can be misconstrued by the receipient. The recent effort to send thousands of bibles to soldiers in Iraq was from the point of view of the senders an act of love. From some folks and some soldiers it could be seen as an act of religious propaganda and terror. Soldiers don't voluntarily submit themselves to being regimented (no pun intended) so that they can then be an easy group to be propagandized by any once else that chooses to do so. That may be their view of this bible thing. Many of them however may appreciate and enjoy the bible gift. Again it is perspective. Also their is the perspective of time. I bet we see the words of the Senator much different than did the people of his time, who welcomed the warmth of the state.

Apparently he never flew on a commercial airline where they always tell you to connect your air mask first. If we are not a demorcacy what is the point of this and all of the other blogs and talk shows. If we cannot change things at all we are insane to participate in this exercise. If you don't believe we are a democracy in the western tradition of free speech and public opinion polls what is the point of you trying to influence other people.

You are full of it Archer concerning the Constitution and the Articles both being still applicable. But what is new you have been full of it from the first time I ever read one of your posts. When you do not pay your taxes like your neighbors and fellow citizens you are in effect robbing them. Tax payers in this country are now paying approximately two and half trillion leaving a 500 billion deficit. If you are not contributing then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. That 500 billion is the national debt that we sell to the Chineese and your grandkids will have to make good on. So you are stiffing your grandkids.

so be positive for once in your liberty-tree experience. What would you do? Do you know how many police jursidictions exist in the 50 states. Have you never heard that guilt by association is an unacceptable mentality. So quit calling "law enforcement and Judging" fascism because there have been some bad experiences.

"Unity to freedom and liberty" now that is a weird construction, almost as weird and cute as "the United States is a republic not a democracy". Run these by your so called academic friends Logan.

Acher you are a traitor not only to the Union but to the English language. If Chruchill calls western nations democrcies and Bush is trying to bring western style democracy to Iraq as he said, then that is what I mean by democracy. Archer I thought you believed in the Articles not the Constitution. Will you ever make up your mind Boy! Archer are you exercising your Constitutional rights in regards to taxes? If so why not check in to the local Federal Prison and take your turn to be a martyr like your beloved Mr. Ellsworth who was willing to take care of his family while stiffing soldiers etcetera who were dying for him. If not why not? Or are just a coward, all mouth and no action.

The gibberish from Logan and his academic censors is hideous. Especially from one who recites the mantra of "republic" without even knowing what it means. My love of democracy is the same as people like Churchill and Bush etcetera and numerous others who know it to be a government of free give and take of public opinion in a free speech marketplace. My point Robert about our military fights is that these fighters are loyal to the Union and the government that runs it (that is us). The whiners on this site who speak of secession, disunion, and let us cast off this state or that state that they don't like. These sentiments are traitorious. Let us call a spade a spade. Now if you wish to change our government, reduce its' size, or change its' policies, lets have decent conversations about it. The use of definitions that differ from the dictionary, or a private "shop talk" vocabulary is not useful. Words like "republic and sovereign" etcetera. Logan socializes with the wrong academics. Sounds like maybe he communicates with Pepperdine U. Archer it is you I am talking about as being a failure at being an individual. The fact that you fight so hard to be one means you are not one. How simple can I make it. "Unity to freedom and liberty" now that is a weird construction.

PS. If you are for disunion, or secession you are a traitor to the Union.

When us drones pay our taxes to the tune of 3 trillion dollars I don't care what you say the creeps like Ellsworth who think they are special are. Well they are creeps. I agree with your sense of freedom Archer and that is what makes it great. We are a democracy where we can debate these things and the debate will make a difference when taken in totality of public opinion. We are not a static republic where are opinions and the opinions of our fellows do not count for anything. You are a sick man with your view that everything is fake. I hope some day you become that individual you so much want to be but just can't quite make it.

The weak are unable to unite. A person who is always trying to stress his individualism is a person who really does not have any. Thus it is he/they that are in a cage of their own psychological making It is a sad mental illness. Healthy individuals have no problem in joining with others in common cause. Ken I think you have momentarily forgotten our brave and honored service people who I believe the world wonders at and looks up to for their steadfast service. Such bravery and service is not fostered by a nation like you guys try to depict as totally dysfunctional but by a nation these warriors love and respect. Would be nice to see a little love and respect here rather than secessh, traitorious, sentiments. Some cannot say or feel such things due to their weak sense of self or individuality and fear of being a servile flatterer.