Natural law in science, like, biology, botany, geology, astronomy is a different thing than "natural law" in politcis, philosophy etcetera, What existentialism teaches basically is that the study of philosophy is a waste of time. I agree that everyone everywhere is often misunderstood. Thus when Nietsche said he disliked Christianity it was because he felt it was to other worldly and the expense of enjoyjing and living the present life to the full. Unfortunaltely he and many don't grasp the entire gospel. Paul or some body in the Bible said "Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly." If that is not a go for it statement I don't know what is. As far as Augusting (I don't pretend to be an expert) I perceive that he is a "Saint" because his philosophy at some point says "If you build it they will come" and the church should be the central influence on peoples lives. It seems that he was the father of modern church totalitarianism. Of course there were similar folks in the ancient world. I agree 100% that it is a joy to read and glean the thoughts of the ancients but I still like Emersons tack that hell yes WE ARE ALL SOMEBODIES TOO! Thus we are not slave to these old timers or their written in concrete quotes. Their quotes should be food to get our own brains working.

We here it every day with public lack of cooperation with or denigration of our efforts to do anything together, from assisting police, border security or the environment. It is a stiff necked people who do not want to be led. In a demcoracy criticisim of anything and everything on a constant bases is standard practice but some times we need to cooperate for the good of all.

Quote from "History of the World Part II" "It is good to be the King" and I might add even better to be the Kings financier. This mentality is what ushered in the robber barons of the late 1800's and their captive Republican Senators aka "The Gilded Age". We have had another gilded age of late starting with Bush's tax cuts and the incomprhensible ones today are all of the floks in the red states.

Law and organization are two sides of the same coin. The folks in the wiild west did not feel free until they organized and established law and put the roddys and outlaws into their proper place. Liberty is not insensitive/ideological opposition to the idea of organization/government.

I like your tack Logan and wonder what you think it has to say about natural law discovered by someone 100's of years ago. Don't we have the same right to discover and expound natural law and to disagee with the meer human beings (just as meer as us anyway) who discovered it years ago?

"Omnipotent moral busybodies" on a mission: Al Qaida.

Nice idea but I am thinking how Chinese life historically was controlled by "laws" surronding every action. You know "Confucius say this Confucius say that" etc.

Thanks Daiv you did good to give the extended quote. I recommend reading the entire essay. He goes on to say that the only thing that made those old dusty guys great is the fact that they wrote things down. Those of us who are beholden to natural law written down by somebody 100-s and 1000's of years ago (maybe small minds even) live under a form of dictatorship. Emerson said that each of us are just as great intrinsically (if not by actual accomplishment) as the prophets, and the sages etcetera. Intuitivelly we know this is true, for we are not Created Equal just to our contempoaries but to all who have ever lived.

Archer the idea is not that we do something for a stranger in hopes that someday that strange will do something for us, but holy cow lo and behold some different stranger did something for us. I disagree with you and I believe among my well behaved family and friends we anticipate a certain civility in public places and we are prepared to give like wise.

Logan with your highly read background and your insistence on due dilegence you should know that the word "God" was not in the original pledge but added by do gooder religionists during the Eisenhower years. And it should not be there and should be removed. You expounded on Nietzche the other day. You should know that contrary to his writings he was, kind, gentle, courteous etcetera. Like all of us he carried psychological baggage. He disliked the religion of his aunts. He basically thought it wrong to live in anticipation of the future life and not go for all the gusto you can in this life. He is considered to be an Existentialist.

Mike how does the paramount law, the law that is above the minority and above the majority, ever get on the books. What force or power puts it there. A minority power, a majority power, or does it fall from heaven.Logan, Mike has already disagreed with you and admitted that the Unted States today even if unfortunately is a democracy. Logan I have read all of that stuff, I don't claim to be an authority. What you are saying is that you are single handidly trying to create a paradigm shift even if you have to be historically dishonest to do it.What is it so much that you dislike about democracy? Why were the Iraqis so happy to go the polls for the first time in their lives and fashion a government by electing people whom they liked and trusted to get it done? They were giddy with the power of the individual to come together with others to form a majority viewpoint to get it done. For the first time they felt in control of their lives. Then the radicals, the Islamic REPUBLIC types tried to take away this majority rule with murder and mayhem and ram a "god" given (or what they in their ignorance think is god given) government of dictatorial law down the happy democracies throat.

I am not in the mob on this site. It is the gang of three, or the mob of Mike, Logan, and Archer. All our politicos use the word democracy to describe the politcal process of the USA and what we would like the process to be in other countries. Our pledge says this.."I pledge.....to the flag....and to the republic.....one nation....with liberty" These words use the word "republic" and "nation" interchangeable signifying soverign entity. The political process is designated in the word liberty. Republic has nothing to do with liberty in the modern world. It did in the 1780's when republican mobs took over America and Paris. A republican government was a democracy. The emergence of party names in America has distorted the meaning of the words to a great extent. I believe it is fair to say that those adhering to the Repulican Party see themselves as more conservative than those adhering to the Democratic Party. The words however historically have meant the same thing - government by the people.

So what is so wrong with not owning anything. You are philosophically bang on. The only absolute truth (almost absolute) is that in 100 years all or most current inhabitants of planet earth will be dead. We never own anything we are just using it for a time. Socrates was right, "Being rich is not owning things it is being able to use things." And Emerson (yeah Walph Waldo) said it poetically, "Look out across the valley and you will see the Jones farm, the Smith farm etcetera but no one owns the landscape the view it is there for all of us to behold."

What is the politcal process in a "republic" may I ask? I rather live in a political process in which the majority opinion holds sway than in one in which the minority opinon holds sway. Which system may I ask is more dictatorial to the most people? Don't answer, obviously, the rule by the minority is the most dictatorial to the most people. Long live MOB rule!

I like it. We absolute do have a right to our moral judgements, associations based there on etcetera and the people with different moral judgements that stand in opposition to our moral judgements have a right to theirs. This is what makes us a free and diverse society. Government especially a democratically elected one should insure this diverstity.

Logan republic and democracy are not opposites. Republic means nation, country, etcetera. Democracy referes to style of political process. What is the style of the political process in "your" republic may I ask.

You live in a different world than I or anyone with whom I am acquainted live in. I am extemely sorry for you Mike, I suggest you might team up with Tom Cruise and you to might hit on a few cylinders together.

Logan my preacher friends opinion is just that his opinion. I think what he meant was that in his view of Christianity we are to be careful to take care of life, with the use of child safety seats, seat belts etcetera. How that has anything to do with this debate, I dunno so maybe I should apologize for using it. Many families, businesses, corporations, military services, governments at all levels stress the idea "Safety First". I assume that such an in your face policy of safety propaganda is offensive to many, but I beleve it must work or "they" would not keep doing it. In your sense of freedom I would not think such things are welcome, neither would be, you know Public Health initiatives, such as malaria, STD, flu warnings etcetera. Nanny state practices all!

Republic has nothing to do with freedom. Cuba and North Korea are republics. In a republic, as it seems here folks desire it to be, it is not about freedom of assembly, discussion, consensus and voting on issues of the day, but about a predetermined set in concrete code. To me that is not politcal freedom at all. Nor was Plato's Republic about democracy it was about the rule of beneficent philosophers aka communist republic-how is that for freedom that a republic brings. Real property Logan is what is underneath those signs you see on peoples lawns, forget about all that King and government talk. I don't know what you are talking about the government owning my cars. I have never had any government try to take its cars away from me, come check them out or anything else. If you read these messages you should know by now Logan that their is more than one of us who believe and know that the United States of America is a republic (soverign entity) which is a democracy (governed by the popular will of the inhabitants)

My research: 20 states helmets for all ages; 19 states for all under 18; 6 all under 21; 3 of the under 21 states require helmets in order to have insurance; 4 states no helmet required. Check out this study described in clutchandchrome.com 1/25/2008 concerning worldwide study of motorcycle helmet laws. I will support you guys position if you will support a return to gladiatorial combat to the death, the loser will of course have no need of throwing himself upon our health system and this will signal the ultimate end of the nanny state looking out for folks.

Archer wants to shut me up, then you guys would not be able to continue your gibberish. A minister friend of mine once said to me "Seat belts are part of Christian living" of course not all of us have to be Christians or take care of our lives. I agree it should be a freedom to be reckless as long as you do not endanger others. Of course we all make sure that those we care about take care (our kids have training wheels, wear bicycle helmets etcetera at our insistence) but once we become sopuisticated and 18 we can do any stupid thing that we want to do. Then along comes the nanny state just after we feel that we have escaped the common sense of our parents and we are treated as children all over again. If the folks who recklessly endanger themselves and others will stay out of our medical facilities I am with you guys 100%. Mike I agree that in a democracy all individuals should be able to sue anybody at anytime for anyreason. Once we lose our right to sue we have in effect become less than human and have lost virtually all of our freedom. I believe but may be wrong that some in the Republic camp versus Democracy camp are more than willing to take away or limit an individuals right to sue and thus his basic freedom. Archer car titles were primarily introduced to protect movable property from theft. It is diffcult for someone to steal real property but movable property is a different matter. Obviously the state gov. found yearly renewals to be a nice way to stoke their coffers. Most communities would look askance at 10 yeat olds handling weapons unsupervised or driving an automobile unsupervised. Archer your far out ideas appear to sanction a community from protecting itself from such nonsense and to allow automobiles, boats, tractors etcetera easy theft with very little way of recovery or proof of ownership. Talk about a clogged up court system. These controls on our live fellas is only going to get worse. The only answer is a lower and decreasing population. I will research helmet laws nationally and internationally.

Mike tell of a real existing REPUBLIC where there are no "common sense" laws that would offend your since of freedom. Please. Remember one of the early organizations in our wonderful rebellion were the Committes of Safety.

Logan good logic would follow that if we do away with helmet laws we should also be able to drive without windshields, doors etcetera on our automobiles. They are just protective devices anyway.

The law is one thing, the jury of your peers is something else again and a jury can weigh issues like good men and bad men. Like that Preachers wife who was let go on murder charges because her husband was a "bad man". Logan I have heard it explained that a cycle rider without a helmet can cause an accident if hit by a flying stone or bug in his eye if he also refuses to wear goggles. Car accidents without seat belts (and now airbags) wreak much greater havoc upon our ER's, health care systems and insurance costs. Reversing the logic of the previous quote it is "I'll do what ever I damn well please and y'all will pay the consequences." As far as democracies and republics having different approaches to this issue you have inadvertently proved a point of long simmering contention on this site. Since in this country helmet laws, seat belts, are virtually universally required it proves that we are by your own logic a DEMOCRACY NOT A REPUBLIC. Or you wish us to turn back to being a REPUBLIC rather than a DEMOCRACY, do away with helmets and seat belts etcetera. Oh Happy Days!

I dunno, I think Frank Sinatra said this better in "My Way" but I thought morality generally has to do with human relationships. A man doing what he has to do in the wild, what has that to do with morality.