I agree McCauley is telling the truth on politicians, he is not saying that it is good for them to be that way. But people are that way also wanting freedom usually for themselves and not caring to much for the freedom of the other guy. As for Lincoln and Northern meaness you guys are close to right also. Of course any good politician knows that "politics is the art of the possible" so Lincoln did what he could when he could. Never forget this is a nation of compromise not of perfection, not yet anyway.

What is a Waffler point of view? If it is defined as not being a cult followeer, then that is my point of view exactly. People who follow others be it Rand, Limbaugh, or Marx or cult followers who do not think for themselves. Ms Rand's so called philosophy is debunked daily and her followers are compared to "Star Trekkers".

Shame on those politicians but I love the quote. It is like the slave holding south never could understand how slaves could be free and make their own way in the world. Many people think freedom should come slowly to other people. Many fought the Civil Rights movement and wanted restrictions on people's freedom to continue. The quote is absolutel true, in my opinion.

Troddle what does that mean. Did you intend perchance to say trollop. How come she was followed by Tony Blair for like 8 or 10 years. Maybe because her government was something most of the people were trying to escape, hey. Most Englishmen came here for the freedom to make a killing by growing crops with slave labor, then the new world poisoned the old world with cancer from tobacco and obesity from sugar.

Elisabeth Mr, Limbauh states a mantra over and over saying "America is a republic not a democracy" that in itself should be enough for any thinking person to repudiate and disparage the man for ever and ever. No thinking person would ever fall for that stupidity but sadly many do. The name is Mr. Waffler not Smith, I am from Smith.

The communists as in China are apparently running the soundest economey of all. Japan is 170% of GDP in debt, most nations have more debt than the US. But Russia is only 6% and China is nil. What gives here?

Granted J I may have used a wrong word. But you certainly twisted the words and the logic of the quote. Sadly you do not even know it.

What are God's laws, Mike. Who should I ask, a chineese man on the street, a Shinto in Japan, a animist in the jungles of So America or Africa. An atheist in America. At least man's law is not subject to a dictator such as Moses, Mohammad etcetera.

I love alwasy getting honorable mention by Mikey of Norwal. If he did not have me to repsond to the only thing he would say would be, "We hold these truths to be self evident." I don't know if I have ever conversed or communicated with a more shallow dullard than Mikey of Norwalk. But I do appreciate the honorable mention you give to my words.

All liberty in this our country comes from Washington, D.C. Ask any black school child from the south or hate crime defendants who are in jail, or minority person who now live freely in majority neighborhodds etcetera. ALL LIBERTY comes from DC. Native Americans know this also and for years have looked to DC to protect them from localities and states that would dency them Liberty!

A lousy quote by a lousy fiction writer. Intransigent is defined as "Refusing to agree or compromise: irreconcilable". This quote is the opposite of the ones above that extol reason. King George was intransigent and the revoultion was reasonable, there was and is no more reasonable document than the Decloration. An upright posture can be a disguise for an intransigent mind that is completely wrong, the upright posture being a type or form of whistiling in the dark. Kind of reminds me of Richard Nixon of bragging "I am not a crook" when he knew full well that he was. As for Ayn Rand she made many statements like this that appeal to the non-thinking. She was a simple minded Russian emigre who loved the sky scrapers of New York and was disposed to a cultist worship of the men who built them. Teenagers generally worship her but grow out of with a little bit of experience and education.

Liberty is a reasonable way to live and a resaonable way for a people to govern themselves when a people have a high esteem for the quality of virtue. King George was unreasonable. Liberty as we know it and fought for in 1776 was born out of the enlightenment and an understanding that people are innately virtuous. That understanding has been and is still being tested mightily, but one of the virtuous may be patience

Virtue is defined as "the disposition to conform to the law of right; moral excellenceL: rectitude". Disposition is defined as a natural tendency, temperament or characteristic. I suppose a disposition can be learned and developed. While many have the natural disposition to be virtuous others need prodding, jail, justice and for the totally depraved sometimes apparently death. Freedom is necesary for a natural or learned disposition to virtue to be manifested. For those who do not mainfest a desposition to "conform to law", let them be locked up as with tax cheats. Thank God for the Virtuos for they pay their taxes and the wages of the IRS Agent, thank God for the non-virtuous for they give the IRS Agent something to do.

My point is that freedom and liberty has been progressive in this our country. The Declaration and the Constitution started us on a path that is not yet finished. When it was written people were enslaved, women were not free, Indians were sent on trails of tears. We have moe liberty today than we had then. We must keep working for it and earning it. When you guys talk about freedom you mean freedom from Washington, when I talk about freedom I include the freedom and liberty guaranteed by Washington, the Constitution which Washington enforces.

PS: Women did not get Liberty to well after 1860.

What was so great prior to 1860? There were still miserable people back then, check out Thoreau et al. Liberty was not so prevalent in Puritan Mass where you could be hung for being an Atheist, or you were property if you were black in the pre 1860 south. And Mike and Cal think Jim is correct. You guys really have a warped sense of Liberty! Even since 1860 it has taken 140 years to get Liberty right. We have had to work for it and earn it but have made progress with voting rights, housing rights, etcetera. The old society was structured to deny many their Liberty! You guys really have a warped sense of what Liberty is!

Do people under the Taliban have liberty my friend Mike, the Afghan poeple or some of them are working for and trying to earn the ability to practice their birthright, thanks for playing though.

I wish I could say that your retort were civilly or nicely said but I really don't understand your ideological babbling. I for example suggest to you that America and its people are a religious people. Read Ahlstrom, The "Religious History of The American People" thus we all practice a sort of public religion via our democracy and institutions. We are all in this together in ways we can seldom understand fully. So again your forever attempt to be special, separate yourself, your family, your church from the rest is, I think unfortunate and really not a correct understanding of the dynamics of the American community.

I think the dichotomy here is between the word "people" and the "individual". Of course we are born with the gift of liberty from our Creator but improperly constructed society or institutions can deny us an interfere with our birthright. A people must earn as, by and for the group, before it can be effectually realized by the individual. A child in a strict Muslim or Christian or Jewish society are equally born with freedom but do any of them really have the effectual use of their birthright for example.

It hath been said "an unfulfilled life is not worth living". It is impossible to have a full life with out liberty.

No Cal, people contribute so that we can take. Some communities can take without giving like Alaska where every man, woman, and child gets a hand out from the oil revenue in Palin's apparent "socialist welfare" state. Similarly in Kuwat where most are taken care of from oil. Here people have cared about each other from the beginning. Funds and societies for widows, orphans, starving people is not something new neither is laziness, and immorality that on many occasions lands people in dire straights. I have heard but I am not sure that foodstamps is a boon to the agricultural and food businesses, without food stamps in dire times farmers and food processors would be out of jobs as well as the people who were already starving. So some may argue that foodstamps are welfare for farmers. Without the poor buying products, staples, food and toilet paper, my stock portfolio would go south, so I to must be a beneficiary of foodstamps, for I am an investor in the S&P 500.

I am glad I appear to you to talk out of both sides of my mouth, tha is the proof that I think and search for the truth or the correct way. It is easy for you and some y others on here to toe a straight line because you are ideologues and see every thing through rose colored glasses or are totally blind folded, By growing up I mean for you to open your mind, become a thinking person and stop being a robot. I just finished reading Joseph Conrad's novel "The Nigger of the Narcissus". It was very appropos to our discussion. It was an allegory. The story concernd a sole black man who was a crew member on an 1890's sailing ship. He fained illness when he boarded and failed to work the entire trip. When he was found out the Captain ordered him kept below for the remainder of the voyage and he died apparently of pure lack of activity. The remaining crew all bent to their chores and labor and saved the ship through a terrible storm and it eventually returned home safely. James Wait the faker was buried at sea. The allegory Mike is about exercising your liberty, your freedom, or living and relating responsibly with your fellow man. Many on this site bewail welfare, and people who they feel do not carry their own weight so to speak, then these same people complain about carrying their own weight as in paying taxes. They call tax cheats who are in prison, political prisoners. I suggest the tax cheats are just another example of James Wait, The Nigger of the Narcissus, who died of his own arrogance and selfish pursuit of his personal idea of Liberty in spite of the need of his group and of the ship upon which he was sailing. Well these tax cheats are of the same ignorant, selfish camp and are helping to bring down the ship of state, the community and nation in which we live. Now Carlton in Canada will say that my words will make him puke, but he is up there in Canada, I wonder if he even pays US Taxes since he is an American expatriot. PS: These folks oft complain about welfare folk with an overlay probably of racism, but as soon as a black man (Barak Obama) tries to get and lands an honest job they complain about that also. Some people just love to bitch and be unhappy all of the time, I suggest they shall get their wish.

You are full of it Abigail. We have had this argument years ago, you are a simple newcomer to this. Rush Limbaugh has mislead many by his oft repeated canon "The United States is a republic, not a democracy". This statement is totally bullshit to capture the minds of the non-thinking. The fact is that we are a "democratic republic" or a republic that is "of, by and for the people". That are many so called republics Abigail, North Korea is a republic, China is a republic etcetera. The dictionary defines republic as any country that is not a monarchy. In the 1700's the term was revolutionary and meant a politcal entity which is governed by the people who live there. The French Republics were basically anti-monarchy, anti-aristocrat etc. Today the term means a geographic area in which the people living there have the power to govern without outside intervention. Now internal as we know republics are dictatorships, (one man rule), aristocracies, party dictatorships (China. North Korea) religious dictatorships, (Islamic Republics) Iran etcetera. Now the United States of America is a democratic republic. As far as the dictionary it also defines a true republic as a representative democracy which is what the USA is. As far as the word REPUNLIC goes it has two parts RE and Public. The literal meaning of the phrase is Re=return, go back and Public=people. So the word means return to the people, back to the people, thus all authority comes from the people. Elsewhere the dictionary simply says a republican form of governmetn is frankly a democracy and voila a democracy is a republican form of government. Ipso facto my dear friend. Now as far as knowing where one lives I think it is you who should look into the mirror and examine yourself very, very carefully. All that other stuff aout self reliance, piles of debt, dead soldiers, pride, your apparent dislike of the society in which you live, has nothing to do with the discussion of whether or not the United States of America is a republic, a democracy or a democratic representative republic. You are fairly new on this site, be careful there are many clowns on this site that will screw with your mind. What scaes me is how many screwball thinking adults actual exist on here.

Groups have rights also Mikey. I was in St Augustine, Fla. two weeks ago. I went on a Pub Crawl of the historic district. The tour guide explained how the Town Fathers "threw the franchisers" out of the District. That is the McDonalds, Wendy's. KFC etcetera. Now you may see that as an infringement upon the local merchants who owned and desired to be in the district with their glaring signs and cookie cutter establishments. So who is offending who I ask you? You purport a certain relgiosity on many occasions and discuss activities with your church, so how would you feel about a porn shop next to your church, home or childrens school? What we are talking about here is liberty, together with wisdom, virtue, style etcetera. Many social gatherings, architectural areas, etcetera have issues related to style. If your style does not fit you may be invited out. You still have liberty to conform and stay or not conform and go. You know obviously nothing about God at least not the Judeo-Christian God. That Liberty is contained in the perfect Law of Liberty, The Ten Commandments. Keeping that law conforming to that law sets one free, there is no provision for some of the followers to keep it and some not. Your doggerl above does not become you Mike. I for one do care about style and when I leave my 1890's home and walk the blocks of my 1890's town I like it to look that way and stay that way. Chicago built a huge new library 15 or 20 years ago. It was not done helter/skelter free style, no one argued about their Constitutional Rights to build it any way they chose. It was studied and a group of individuals (not one individual dictator) selected a style that befit the Chicago of circa 1935, in their opinion . Now I agree that this group circumvented many individual desires about style. But grow the hell up my friend just grow the hell up!

Anon, pure liberty is not about rights. Liberty recoginzes no rights. To be truly free to do anything you wish is a pure liberty that does not exist except for the most arrogant of individuals. Right has nothing to do with, your liberty comes up against resistance when it encounters other peoples liberties. That is what these series of quotes is all about, wisdom, virtue and the situation of folk living and relating together. We are certainly not at liberty to do many things our pioneer fathers did or do them the same way that they did. Liberty is often about what you can and cannot get away with based on the prevailing social, moral, physical environment etc.