But he begs the question who is the superior race.

I don't feel that I have any cohorts. I thought you were a cohort on the Civil War thing. The fact is that Harvard, Princeton and Wm and Mary were established by the societies, publics or states in which they existed that being Massacusetts, New Jersey and Virginia. All this talk about :"state schools" versus home schooling of the founders is the purest BS I have ever heard.

Thanks Warren for bringing in some great fresh light and clarity on the Civil War thing. You are absolutely on target. Nice to hear from you.

I don't pretend to know what a Phd in computer science is or does. I installed large frame general ledger computer systems in a hospital and in a two billion dollar sales corporation. Computer work got be burnt out, just too nerdy for me. My nephew bounced around in his 20's but again got a BS at age 29 was accepted at Washington University in St Louis (a private institution) and five years later he and his wife had Phd's. He is now a Senior Instructor at Ohio State University. He has co-authored books on education. One has the title "If You Can't Teach Them, Learn Them" or something like that. Fabulous woodworking furniture bldg in his basement is simply a hobbly. I don't buy you guys calling "public schools, colleges and universities" education by the state. Do you wish to say that the public is the state, if you choose that jargon then I will agree with you. But public education is much more diverse, free of dictatorial stances as are some other schools. In todays post M. Brown thinks that the founders were home schooled. Wrong! Jefferson went to Wm and Mary, Madison to The College of New Jersey now Princeton, and Adams went to Harvard which was started by the Puritans. The founders and 10's of thousands of their fellow contemporaries were highly educated persons for their day. I am sure the right wing crowd and nativists would like to think they all lived in log cabins and self-educated themselves, NONSENSE!

Okay!

What founders M. Brown? Jefferson graduated from the College of William and Mary and his father was highly educated. Adams graduated from Harvard College. James Madison graduated from The College of New Jersey (I guess that name made it a state college and "state eucation") now it is called Princeton. Wahsington is the only one who seems to have left school at the age of 12. He was not well read like the others but as we know was a great leader also. Where did you learn that these guys were homeschooled.

Thanks J. Lincoln and his Republican Party were fundamentally abolitionists. His speech about a house divided could not stand was a basic principal with him and his party and a divided house was what existed from 1787 until his time. While his agenda and the Republicans and abolitionists to end slavery was kept on the back burner because they did not know exactly how or when it could be done, was still out there. The South hated this back burner agenda and forced it to the fore with their secession. Lincoln played the game of choosing between right and what is practicable or possible very well, starting out with ending secession and finishing by ending slavery. My understanding is that we do not have a "state" in these United States. We have a public who establishes and supports "public schools" at the elementary, Jr and Sr, High, College and Universtiy levels. A state school in my parlance would be one run by a dictator or a political party. A church school with narrow teaching dictated by a particular belief system is more prone to being dictatorial than are the public schools in all 50 states, and county community colleges etcetera. It is great discussing these things with you J and am glad we all have thick enough skins to laugh at ourselves, our errors and our different understandings. Hopefully this exercise is all to our betterment.

What Buchanan was referring to was slavery. He was the guy just before Lincoln. It was right to end slavery (so thought some) but it was not practiable (in other words not easy) it took the War of Northern aggression as some would call it. So while I am generally in favor of compromise and the politics of the possible sometimes yes one must put their foot down for absolute RIGHT. God give us the wisdom to know when that is as he gave it to Lincoln to know it.

Cal am I correct that you may be the only person who has never used Spell Checker. I guess it was designed only for state and "publicly educated" people. Sadly I have not found spell checker available on this site. Maybe this site was and is only intended for use by privately schooled individuals. If so forgive my intrusion into theri psycho world. AGAIN I KNOW OF NO STATE EDUCATION IN THE USA except for the US Army. They taught me the spirit of the bayonet, to kill. But I was there willing and not by coercion.

J I think you miss the nuance. Why am I not surprised. As Lincoln said "we must first know the right". Different folk see one way as right and others see another way. I think we should beware of those who absolutely know what is right at least if they know it all of the time.

I disagree Mike you need to get out more and actually visit a public school campus. Yeah they don't brow beat the Catholic, Baptist, atheist, Jewish children that come to their classes. That is what the parents and the chruces are for. What the public school does is respect the childrens rights to their personal beliefs and traditions. Sort of like most adult places of work and gathering where private religion is not forced upon the adults. Most adults know that when you meet each other you normal discuss things in common, you look for commonality of interests and purposes. Why do you wish to treat children so dictatorially when you would not do that with adults, or would you? God Bless public education and its god given commitment to freedom versus dictatorship, even the dictatorship of God.

Robert I find your 3 and 4 to be similar goals but both equally naive. Anytime a group of people live in a society or have a government they will be in violation of your goals to be unencumbered by politics, religion or "bureaucratic dictates" I would take to mean law.

Jim what business does a K thru 8 grade student have to disagree with the teacher. Maybe 9 thru 12 a little bit more business disagreeing. Why do you think teachers are evil and must be disagreed with? Do you know any teachers, you need to get out more I think and get real.

Thank God we have neither in this country. I don't know anyone who claims that "state universities" in this country are analogous to state education. Their are 50 "state" universities. Neither are public schools "state education". You can only have stae educaton when you have a static absolutist dictatorial government or party like the former Soviet Union, or the Taliban.

It is right to have intelligent conversations but is it always practicable? Obviously not with Republicans concerning health care, obviously not when it concerned discussing slavery with the southern states. Absolute "right" has little to do with human or politcal affairs. As Clinton use to say "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good or the better". The statistics say that 40% of Medicare expenditures that any person ever receives are spent on that person (you and I eventually) in the last year of our lives. Intelligence says that we need to get a grasp on that fact and discuss, but try to discuss with Republicans. This country and its politics has alwasy been based on compromise. If one cannot handle the idea of tentativeness and wants absolutism and what is "right" one would prefer living in some type of dictatorial state.

Archer your best bet to learn about one great example of public education is to google "Woodworking with David Mathias" and take it from there. Even an old f' like you may be able to learn something from a public school person, if but only if, you will ever open your jaded cave facing eyelids.

I was only trying to counter Mikey's bragadocio remarks. The kid was a late bloomer, he did it his own way, not getting his BS until 29 and then taking off into academic nirvana. I believe that his Phd was gotten as part of a fellowship in which he worked as a professors assistant. He is not a kid anymore, he is 48 years of age. You would like the kid Archer, his hobby is woodworking and he builds fine cherry furniture and things like that in the basement of his home. With your disrespect for everything I would not expect you to apprciate or understand the academic arena of Computer Science or to appreciate that computer science originated in academia and the military. You can access the kids wef site at H. David Mathias.com. Take a look at his fruniture also. It is quite something. GOD BLESS PUBLIC EDUCATION

Is this ths same guy as I.I. Lenin leader of the fledgling Soviet Union. He agrees with Mike and all of these right wing nuts about education. It doesn not matter it would appear to him whether the school is home, chruch, or public. If something like schooling is so bad why does every talk about it but does not do anything about and keeps on schooling their kids. The answer adults got nothing better to do that to bitch.

PS: My public school and University of Delaware, Washington University educated nephew and his publicly educated wife are both Phds. in Computer Science and bio-chemistry. God Bless public education and those who learn and know how to thrive in it and through.

You do not even know my kid Mike so how can you say that yours has a better education than mine. My kid went to church school through the 10th grade. Beyond that he was very self taught and very ambitious. He was a successful real estate appraiser until real estate went south last year. Now we owns a vary successful restaurant at a marina and has a beautiful home. I have met home schooled kids and my perception is that they are backward, shy and feel as if they have missed out on some very important aspects of life. "My kid just has a better education" what a terrible statement.

Judith I would really like to hear more about this. What a sordid affair you are talking about. I bet there are other sides to this story.

90% of American students attend public school. In 2000 72% of those attendees were tested to be on track as far as their knowledge at their grade level. American literace rate was higher than European countries. European students were higher in math and science. However a study by one researcher fouund that "a slightly higher proportion of American adults were scientifically literate as compared to Europe and Japan". This would seem to indicate more self direction and learning after high school either in college or independently by Americans. Just a few morsels for the always adamant purveyors of ridicule and scorn for the way Americans have freely chosen state after state and communiyt after community to educate their children. I mean really put a sock in it and get a life. Enough of this "my kids are better than your kids" BS.

Public school kids have available to them all of the same resources as home schooled kids plus the public school. Public school is not some type of down and out poor orphan. Some in wealthier communities have Olympic sized swimming pools etc. Many parents examine the amenities of the local school system when deciding to buy a home. The wealthier communites High School facilities on occasion exceed the grandeur, scal and credentials of the many college campuses. I disagree with you jaded tunnel vision view entirely Mike. You are like that story about a man facing the back wall of the cave rather than looking and venturing out the front door. Again homeschooling is primarily motivated my the desire to create your child in your own image. I am not so sure that that is the best motivation.

Jim K is showing his ignorance today. What this country needs is a love for the liberal arts together with skills to earn a living. Life without art, history, music is not worth living. Thinking for oneself is what liberal arts degrees are all about. I needed a job so I switched to Accounting but still love the liberal arts.

Warren do you have long or short term Alzheimers? Just above you said I was correct. In the rest of your paragraph above it seems that you agree with my observation that the founders did not beat each other over the head with their various denominational differences. They saw a need to keep politics above the religious differences that existed in the colonies. Washington was probably no more religious than his contemporaries but would appear religious by the standards of some today. I think his appearance of religiousosity and uprightness is comparable to Obama who may be the most upright politican in recent memory. As a young man he was earnest and generally pure, not "when I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible" as GW said he was. He is the husband of one woman, never divorced as John McCain was. His family and its values seem consistent and upright not willy-nilly and weird like Sarah Palin's and her $200,000 politcal wardrobe. He dedicated himself as a young man in helping others as did Washington when he embarked upon his expedition to Pittsburgh etcetera. Need I go on!