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Posts from A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IAA.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA
A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

Back again. OK, school is out and I don't have to be facing classes for the next three months, so I now have more time. In short, I found the source of the quote. It is from Taylor Caldwell's novel on Cicero, "A Pillar of Iron." I obtained a copy of the book club edition on eBay and found the passage. It is on page 602 of the book club edition, page six of Chapter 57. It may be on other pages in the regular hardback editions and in the paperback edtion. It is where Cicero is being voted into exile for his extra-legal orders of execution of the supporters of Catiline. Caesar, Pompey and Crassus did nothing to help him. Now, Caldwell ends the passage with an asterix (*) for a fotnote and states in that foot note: "Recorded by Sallust" a late Roman republic historian/propagandist. The problem is that I have gone back and read every extant work of Sallust and it is not there. Now, can we agree that this ends it? IOW, Cicero never said it. Period. Full stop. A mid-20th century hack author said it/made it up. Does this make the truth of the "quote" invalid? Nope. Does it illustrate the intellectual laziness of those who blindly attribute this to Cicero? You bet your ass it does. Look, quote it all you want as it is, I have no problem with that. I agree with the sentiment. Just don't attribute it to some one without proof. In doing so, you just weaken the cause you wish to advance. .

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

This is Caesar being quoted by Sallust, in his account of the conspiracy of Catiline in 62 BC. Here, caesar is arguing against the death penalty for the conspirators. It is found at LI, 27 of that work and the full Latin text is "Omnia mala exempla ex rebus bonis orta sunt;" The full passage reads, in English: "All bad precidents have originated in cases which were good; but when the control of the government falls into the hands of those who are incompetent or bad, your new precident is transferred from those who deserve and merit such punishment to the undeserving and blameless."

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

OK, Laura, et al., let's just look back on this thread and see what I said. 1. No one has been able to give an exact notation of where this supposed quote is to be found in the writings of Cicero. 2. Tied to that, no one has ben able to provide the original Latin oif this "quote." 3. I had earlier in this thread stated that I did not disagree with the message of this "quote," but only with the authenticity of its attribution. In short, are you who are all in a lather over this really that freaking stupid that you cannot recognize that? Does it not sink in that if you are not able to verify that an author said what you claim he did, you are only weakening your argument? Honestly, it is examples of such stupidity that makes me fear for the future of our country.

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

Nice, but extremely unlikely this was ever said by Cicero. Once again, a "quote" with no documentation as to what work in which it was taken. IOW, immediately suspect as bogus.

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

Well, irg of Tampa, I did the research but, once again lazy sloganeers like you get it back wards. If you attribute it to an author, you should be able to to give the exact citation as to where it can be found in that author's works, if not in the original language. You and your ilk do not because you are more content to parrot a clever quote rather than investigate its source. I guess you also missed the part where I said I do not disagree with the substance of the alleged "quote." Again, falsely or ignorantly attributing it to a Greek or Roman source only weakens your argument when it cannot be backed up.

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

Well, Claudius, you actually have it backwards. It is up to those who claim it is a quote from Cicero to prove it. Give us the exact passage citation and the original Latin. If you cannot, then it remains an unproven quote. Please note that I did not disagree with the substance of the alleged "quote", but only with the source. Making such a statement and then falsely or ignorantly attributing it to a Greek or Roman author only ultimately weakens the argument. Is that what you want?

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

Well now, I see I am now branded a traitor. Perhaps Joe of Rochester, MI can leave aside his jingoistic blather and prove me wrong. In short, just where did Cicero say this? What is the original Latin? This quote is running rampant on the internet, yet no one, no one, has ever given the specific source. As a Classicist, I am offended by such bogus appeals to faux authority. More and more, it seems, that one can put up anything, in support of the right or the left, attribute it to a Greek or Roman author and get close to instant, knee jerk respect and acceptance. In short, cite "chapter and verse" so it can be independently verified or shut the hell up.

A.W. Schlaf, Des Moines, IA

A bogus "quote". Cicero never said it.

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