“He is free who knows how to keep in his own hand the power to decide, at each step, the course of his life, and who lives in a society which does not block the exercise of that power.”

Amen. Staying free and independent is much more than just ones relationship to his various local, state, national, and international governments but has to do with how one conducts his personal and social life.

Personal Liberty requires that we act and live with morals, ethics and respect for others. Therefore, it is in opposition to government.

Yes, away from fundamentalism and government dictates

Government is the leader of society. The Mayor in your city, the Governor in your state and the President. So we try to elect persons who espouse our morals, ehics, and since of respect. In the end a democratically elected government is the will of the people in terms of morals, ethics etcetera. Ideally they should not be in opposition at all.

Democratically elected is right on - this governemnt was not democratically elected - The majority voted for another governerment. Unfortunately, those in power turn the wheels of democracy and the people are left totally uniformed.

Society includes the elected and non-elected -- it is We The People. We could all do with a lot less self-righteousness and a lot more personal responsibility. The government is supposed to 'manage' not 'rule.' All too often people try to use the power of the government to impose their will on others.

There is no contingency to freedom. The cliche that "Freedom isn't free" is false. Freedom is free, because man is born free, period. Men are "free" at all times, but their ability to express their freedom can and will be hindered. For man to maintain the full expression of his freedom against encroaching government calls for eternal diligence; however, freedom and liberty are always his, regardless. Governments are arbitrary entities that were established by men to enforce law. There are several different kinds of law (monarchial law, judicial law, natural law, etc.) by which each society will adhere. The founders of this nation, in what we call the "great experiment," sought to objectify the subjective law of man by ordaining this land adhere and operate under "natural law." This is further evidenced by John Adams words that man can not make law, only God can -- man's duty is to define the natural law that God has ordained. The premise of natural law is that all men have intrinsic rights, merely because they exist and reason. The Christian and religious view of this natural law is that governments will adhere to both the laws of nature and of nature's God who ordained the law in the first place, because they are inherently children of God and he has given them these rights. Man is not free because he does things--one cannot measure freedom; however, one can measure the expression of freedom, by which we can know the just cause of a government. I like Archer's differentiation between "manage" and "rule" -- very Jeremy Bentham of you.

Government is still the nominal leader of society. Of course in a democracy (I said democracy not republic) in a democracy we always have the loyal opposition. This balance is good. But nations or peoples throughout the ages have tried to choose the most favored in looks, demeanor, morals, ethics and values, for this Honored Person is in effect us vicariously sitting on the Throne. We put our hopes for the future and good government into these people. So often half of us are disappointed. It is still good. So be it!

Unless we rise up when we see injustice our words are dust in the wind. Enough rhetoric now is the time for people to march in the streets and bring back our country, away from these dark years of deception and lies. Humans are NOT FREE period. We must work for our freedom - say to a baby with HIV whose parents have been brutally killed whose life expectancy is one year "but you are Free" Freedom is totally relative - we must distance ourselves from this talk of "we are born Free" it means nothing unless it can be practiced. God has nothing to do with it either - natural law doesn’t belong to God or anyone. Natural law is the nature of things and the nature of man has corrupted the nature of law. Unless we stop the rhetoric and start getting our hands messy and helping those in need and less fortunate our words are meaningless. Go to Africa and dig a well, go to India and help eradicate Polio, go to war zones and bring peace - unless you do this our words are dust in the wind.

"Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under". H.L.Mencken

Every government is evil, some just more than others.

RobertSRQ, do you know how many Christian charities and ministries have been serving AIDs babies in Africa -- and around the world? You are very quick to insult the God-fearing for their foolish beliefs, while preaching from your own pulpit to go dig a well in India (which I have done, by the way) -- what ignorance. Your entire philosophy mirrors the christian ideal, only without 'God' or apparently natural law. If man can corrupt natural law, doesn't that make man God? That does seem to explain such a philosophy.

It is understandable. In order to say something exists or doesn't exist, it has to be defined. God can be defined in such a way as to prove such a thing is impossible; defined another way, the presence of God is the essence of all the universe. Robert complains a lot about religious wars, but preaching anti-God messages and telling people to go serve his favored objects of compassion (in other words, HIS conscience) is more of the same nonsense blamed on religion.

If there is any freedom in this life, Robert, it is the freedom to follow my own conscience. Do you respect that? You might find a bit more inner peace when you stop making war on others who follow their consciences even if they are founded upon a belief in something you 'know' doesn't exist. Self-righteous, egocentric attitudes are no more inspiring in atheists than in bible-thumpers.

Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness ? Some do not care what they live in, or how they live. Some care how they live and the shape of what they live. With the removal of man from the land, basic needs and skills are denied the individual. Becoming dependent is a miserable life, not to be sought after. But there are many that will not lift their hand to feed themselves. Sad. Yes through hard work, coupled with an education one can rise to a certain degree above the mud at the bottom of the barrel. This does not remove, the underlying cause of discomfort. Being poor, one can live a rich life. And being rich one can live a poor life. Life is work, necessity is laid upon us all. People have become far to complacent, being remove from the land that supplies their needs. The materials readily available, but denied for greed sake, monopolized upon by the few. It is a false reality created by the powers that be, to keep and possess proletariat, slaves. Mentally or bodily. The oldest traded commodity, slaves and their labor ! Cities are traps that grow less accommodating to the masses. The natural law of cause and effect. New and better are where those with means move, such as the exodus from the decaying inner cities. Left, to the people where the strong prey upon the weak. The lack of conscience speaks loud when the lights are turned off ! This is a product of Socialism at its corrupt core and stupidity of mindset. Coral the knowledge and the land in a few hands, the people loose the ability to think for or provide for themselves. Then become depressed, disgruntled,lazy and with out moral, good conscience to guide their behavior. giving into abuse of themselves and others because of depravity. Now the pot boils over by the working of an unjust, morally bankrupt, corrupt, greedy, tyrannical, international banking system in concert with elected officials governing the people on their behalf. When those in the middle, that Have, stand up to the tyranny , those that have not, will pay attention, instilling hope into their hearts, that all is not lost, for the lest in society. Teach a person to fish, build, grow, and labor for themselves with the joy of doing so. Then protect their right to the fruit of their labor then they will love their neighbor. Passing on the experience. Sorry if I am to winded. The quote should include the guidance of a good conscience, less one oppress their neighbor. Honesty is rare, but is required for peaceful coexistence without slavery of any kind.

RonW13, I like it!