“Fear is the key element for the IRS in achieving its mission. Without fear, the IRS would have a difficult time maintaining our so-called system of voluntary compliance ...”

Where are some quotes re the fact that IRS has been gutted by the powerful so that only the average working person's taxes get audited? I don't think there's a damn bit of fear in these people. And what about the fact that income tax is the fairest tax of all, or it was when it was graduated fairly?

Consumption and exise taxes are the fairest -- those are the taxes that were authorized by the Constitution. Of course, with a fiat money system run by a private corporation, we have run up a debt so high, that in addition to consumption taxes, income taxes are levied -- all so that we can merely pay the interest on an unpayable debt. The IRS is the collection agency for the Fed -- always has been.

Hooray for Presti.

The highest purpose of the federal government is national defence. That is protecting the lives of individuals. When people propose that it is fairer for the rich to proportionately owe more for the defence of his and his family's lives, then they are implying that a rich man's life is worth more than a poor man's life. That has to be the case, since he owes more of his life to the government.

Recall Leona Helmsley - "the Queen of Mean."

So, just to really make everyone's day (and nightmare), It's Not Over When the Tax Lady Sings.

Fear becomes anger, becomes loathing. If the new budget carries through and the US basically kills its own currency to become part of a "one world" currency...(which is happening very quickly now) I would not want to be the IRS agent who has to start knocking on doors to enforce tax law. That person will have a very short life expectancy...NOW who's living in fear?

This fear gig is a false one. I fear that if I don't pay my utility bills I will not have water, electric, or gas service. I FEAR that if I don't pay my mortgage I will lose my house. So really lets all PUT A SOCK IN IT ABOUT THIS FEAR THING.

Waff...Taxation is not voluntary, its extortion. Utilities and mortgages are not. YOU put a sock in it "government boy".

Waffler, your example demonstrates the integrity of a wannabee thieving slave. I pay my utilities, mortgage, and other bills because it is right. I willingly contracted with certain others for services, purchases, and otherwise and am grateful for the ability and opportunity to keep my word. Income tax, as currently enforced, is larceny under threat and duress. Waffler, under what lawful nexus do you own the fruits of my labors? Under what lawful nexus does Dick above own my labors? At what number of combined theocratic socialists creates a lawful nexus that owns the fruits of my labors? Without income tax, the U.S. became the most prosperous, powerful, and giving nation on earth. The only reason for income tax (collected under threat and duress) is to scare the people into submission, accepting debt paper (notes) as money and create a climate of fear so that the alien theocratic despots can do anything it/they want with impunity.

You are raising a different issue Mike. The issue raised by the quote is do people pay their bills out of fear. I suggest we know that if we do not pay that there will be consequences. I suggest that the same consequences adhere to tax debt as to any other. Now I will address the issue that you raise, whether or not the income tax is taking the fruit of your labor. Under the income tax law it is stated that there shall be a tax on income from whatever source derived. Now that is the law of the land. It does not say "labor" only just all income. So the moment you have income a portion of it belongs to the governments (federal and many states). If you hold back the portion belonging to them you are stealing the fruit of their services. Like they provide you with defense, outer space research, legal services as in the Supreme Court, agricultural services etcetera. I hope you get the picture. Governments provide you service and demand that you pay for them, You may have performed services for others at some time in your life and expected your agreed upon beforehand remuneration, I now understand that you are self-employed and expect to be paid for your service. The governments federal and state expect to be paid for their services by the agreed upon beforehand remuneration as stated in the law. If you don't you are STEALING THE FRUIT OF THEIR LABOR extended on your behalf, like the 4000+ who died on your behalf in Iraq etcetera.

PS: The fact that the Feds are 10 trillion dollars in debt is the extent to which their services have been received without being paid for, it is time we paid up for the services that we have received, including the trillion or so spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. The government is busting their ba**s for us while we sit on our a**es and talk about the "fruits of our labor"! Unconscionable that is what we are!

I agree with former-Agent Presti completely. The funny thing is that the fear is not, for the most part, that the economy and infrastructure will collapse. That's moot at this point. The IRS relies on our fear of being inconvenienced.

Waffler, if I don't pay my mortgage, I'm not afraid of the consequences, I simply move out. You've read my story many times, I've lived on the streets with my family with out as much as a car to sleep in. I may not like it, but its not fear that motivates the payment. The unknown is a scary concept a lot of the times but I really don't believe that is why most people pay their bills. I believe the majority of people have more integrity than that. As to paying for government services: look in the yellow pages (for a start) and then tell me where specifically the Constitution lawfully states that the government can perform those duties for me. (Like the Department of Energy that was formed in 1977 to lesson our dependence on foreign oil, at a cost of $24.2 Billion a year) The original meaning of income was a corporate excise tax and since the 16th Amendment gave the government no new powers, after the Amendment was passed a corrupt government illegally changed the meaning and enforcement of the term. There is more than enough taxes collected to pay for all Constitutional expenditures without going to a system of larceny. Larceny can never be claimed to be law within the parameters the founders set up as the Law of Nature and of Nature's God. Only when you believe that man is the ultimate god can you say that larceny is law.

P.S. No one can steal the fruits of illegal labor. If a sovereign within the several States does not pay for a criminal or foreign despot to perform their tyrannical endeavors (proclaimed earlier or not), he can not be prosecuted for theft, or being an accomplice thereof. Further, illegal contracts are unenforcible. The Federal and State governments you reference are no longer my representatives (by their own declaration) but rather alien bodies with inherent right. The rules and statutes they call law are as foreign and non-binding on a domestic sovereign under the Constitutional Republic as Chile's, China's, or Czechoslovakia's. No domestic sovereign owes any of those bodies politic a dime for services they claim to render on my behalf. Just because the foreign despot that infests this nation has ability to extract obedience through fear of threat and duress, does not make it lawful or legitimate.

Waffler, your example only works or is appropriate if you are a slave to the foreign despot.

As usual Mike you are off the wall or have been hung up on the wall to dry out. You changed the conversation. People like to have utilities, the naive might stop paying just to see what happens, if you don't pay your bills on time many creditors assess a late charge. The fear of getting a late charge keeps many folk paying on time. Start ignoring your gas gauge and see if your car will keep running when the needle is on E. All these things are designed as warnings to instill fear of the bad consequences that will befall you if you do not pay attention and as Jesus was quoted last week, keep careful and accurate accounts. Call it fear if you like but there are warning signs to keep us on the straight and narrow.

I looked out my door today to find "government". I saw the tree in my front yard, the sidewalk, the street, the houses and homes of my neighbors. I saw the sunshine and the new buds come out on the trees, and I felt the wind as I walked down the street. I got in my car and drove around the town looking for government. I saw cars and people; tall buildings and street lights; street lights and street signs. I saw the creations of man and of God all day, but I failed to find "government". I'm interested to know who this "government" is that is "busting their ba**s" for me that I should capitulate my property to it. I'm reminded of the words of Thomas Paine who said, "A constitution is not the act of a government, but of a people constituting a government". He further elaborated, "there is no such thing as the idea of a compact between the people on one side, and the government on the other. The [constitution] was that of the people with each other, to produce and constitute a government. To suppose that any government can be a party in a compact with the whole people, is to suppose it to have existence before it can have a right to exist... Government is not a trade which any man or body of men has a right to set up and exercise for his own emolument, but is altogether a trust, in right of those by whom that trust is DELEGATED, and by whom it is always RESUMABLE. [Government] has of itself no rights; they are altogether duties." I saw the town hall today in my city, but I still didn't see "government". I saw a building with people in it. I saw people working together, given a delegated duty to act in the welfare of those that put them in office. They can only act in the power we the people have given them, and we can only give them powers that we ourselves possess; otherwise, any assumed duties or powers is usurpation and tyranny. I cannot take money from my neighbor to pay for the public road, nor can I keep him from driving on it once it has been built. The compact between the people does not Constitute that I can force any man to do anything; even the powers of Eminent Domain have evolved to encompass things the founders never imagined. The powers that were delegated to the government for such things have been sorely abused beyond their means and limits. Individual rights were vouchsafe under the original Constitution, but only afterward were they infringed upon by unknowing or conniving individuals. Taxes were never meant to be directed from the people individually -- especially from the Federal Government. This is a violation of rights of the individual and a return to the very premise and systems of government the War for Independence fought to throw off.

Logan you answered your own question and are just too verbose and long winded to even know it. "a people constituting a government". You hit the nail on the head. The street lights and signs, the tall buildings and the regulations concenrng them and their elevators are all in place and in order due to the working of government. That government is benign, that is you do not see it, is a testimony to good government and to self government. More noticeable government only gets involved when people do more noticeable things like ignore the street signs and traffic lights that you saw. The government that we see is usually of a law enforcement nature. You seem to be a law abiding person (that is a person who is self-governed and within the laws established by your neighbors) and seldom come into contact with this law enforcement part of government. Unfortunately not all people in your town, state or nation are as conscientious as you and that is when a more visible form of government comes a calling. The same is true conerning the income tax laws. Every law comes with a penalty for failing to obey it. A penalty for failure cannot be administered without the judgement of people. Thus any body of law has enforcers be it policemen, sheriffs, judges, Tax Agents etcetera. Make some missteps Logan and you can get the government down upon you. You are however along with many of your neighbors sufficiently self-governed and act within the mores of the society and its moral suasion that more forceful or aggresive measure are not required. Thus you do not see government. This is good, this is great. For a fuller view however go and sit in on court room proceedings in your town for a week or two and find out what is going on. You will then have a better understanding and possibly appreciation for the more formal functions of government.

Taxation is a scam and just plain morally wrong. Theft always is. In order to maintain infrastructure a system of "user fees" could be put in place on things people use. And it can be done locally with zero Federal involvement. The whole system we have to today is evil at its core and was implememted by evil men.

So J do you sugggest that when you leave your driveway you should pay a fee upon entering the street and then at each turn you make you would pay another user fee. Maybe a GPS technology could be used to document every where you go and then you would be sent a bill at the end of the month. Failure to pay then we would take your car. Their is a user fee of sorts for cars. You only pay gasoline tax if you use it and travel. In fact if you use it on the farm you can apply for a refund of the highway gas tax. Unfortunately because of the underfunding of the income tax they may have borrowed the gas tax as well as the Social Security tax to pay for war and other things. The income tax needs to be boosted to get us out of the awful mess Reagan/Bush/Bush has put us into.

Mike and Logan have said it well. Yes, the quote is about the fact that we pay taxes out of fear not because they are lawful. Just like here in NYC, Russian mobs or Italian mafiosa intimidate small business owners into paying 'protection money' -- they either pay or risk losing their businesses or worse their lives. It is the common fallacy of collectivists that the mob needs to pressure the individual to 'do the right thing' -- of course 'the right thing' is as the mob has defined it, not as the individual has. The misnomer is that people will not help themselves so they must be 'saved' by church or state. However, history is replete with examples of theocratic and political power structures oppressing and persecuting the 'unbelievers' or 'protestors' using the same excuses Waffler uses above. Might does not make right, and to simply pay taxes because of the dangers of standing up for one's own rights and liberties is to be cowardly. Sadly, we must hang together or otherwise hang separately -- we know Waffler's recommendation, and if we don't follow it, he will happily let you be thrown to the wolves for daring to stand up for your own rights and the rights of all freedom-loving people around the world.

Anonymous (most likely Waffler again) says: "Maybe a GPS technology could be used to document every where you go and then you would be sent a bill at the end of the month. Failure to pay then WE would take your car." Note that he says 'we' would take your car. It is not hard to see that Waffler sees himself as the enforcer and the one who happily uses the 'law' to take what is not his in order to force eternal servitude upon the citizenry. He shows his true colors and consciousness as a collectivist (and 'collector' i.e. thief) -- 'we' means him and the might is the right.

Anon, you're question is really just too ridiculous to even bother wasting an articulate response. It does though, show just how brainwashed by "inside the box" socialist thinking you are. Sad and pathetic. There are other ways to support infrastrucure that are not theft. Ways which would not allow the rampant threft and corruption we now "enjoy."

Waffler is very likely an IRS man. Mind you I'm only guessing based on the rabid defense of all things communist he puts forth while still having the nerve to call himself an American.

You are the one who suggested user fees Carlton. How do you suggest they be collected when you walk on side walks and drive on roads? A collection booth at every turn you make. Do you like user fees or don't you. Come clean man, come clean! Boo Archer it's me again!

Having had personal experience with our concerned and caring IRS personel I find this quote true. The first of the last two meetings I had with my friends was an attempt to extort through fear and when that didn't work my friendly agent actually took me to the side and told me not to bother paying that which the IRS said I owed as the statute of limitations was coming up. At this meeting, there were also two IRS trainees learning the ropes so to speak. At my final meeting, a last ditch effort to collect a few days before the statute of limitations ran out, the same friendly agent informed me, with a laugh as a matter of fact, that the two "trainees" were really bodyguards that he (my friendly agent) didn't ask for but was given because of fear of me. The IRS well knew I didn't fear them because up to that point they hadn't been able to collect what they said I owed from prior actions and so the bodyguards. This is the way it should be, where the servant fears the master and not the other way around. My friendly agent knew the score but in his practical judgement he needed the job and was of the mind he couldn't do anything about what he knew I was right about. To this day, though I do detest his choice of work, I have a liking for this man who at least understood and let me know, indirectly, that he believed I was right and what they were asking him to do gave him misgivings. I like to think that at some point he gave up his dirty work for an honest job and has become unafraid of his masters. I believe this is possible because the truth, which he knew, tends to have that effect on people once they realise and deal with it instead of fearfully avoiding it. The truth is what our corrupt rulers fear and a lesson I learned is that if one man standing on it can induce fear in the servant, many times the one will create a fear in the entirety of our servant structure that will make them turn tail and run. The darkness of lies disappear when the light of truth is shined on them and the propagators of lies fear that light more than anyone thinks or knows. Know the truth, spread it without fear of mammon and it will, by nature, set us free.

Thanks, Anon, for standing up to these goons. Can you point me to a link explaining the statute of limitations for IRS tax claims? I was under the impression there was none.

http://www.google.ie/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DAIE_en-GBIE274IE275&q=IRS+code%2c+statute+of+limitations-------http://www.irs.gov/irm/part25/ch06s01.html#d0e13813----------------http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2006/806/essentials/p46.htm---------------There are more links and it is important to note that the all confusing methods of the IRS code have statutes of limitations that vary depending on issues at matter and one limitation doesn't necessarilly apply to another situation. I should tell you that my case was not criminal in nature but only civil and therefore no incarceration involved but only seizures of property and/or any form of monetary property. How I kept them out of my pockets for the period of limitations is another story which I choose not to get into here. Each persons circumstance is different and methods of battle will determine, because of these differences, the way to attack and defend and of course to this day the same holds true. For my own protection I can't say more except that for any law there is a loophole if one is dedicated enough to find them. Going a bit further there are ways to lawfully create a non "taxpayer" status which removes IRS jurisdiction from ones life that is not a matter of filling out a form and your done. Again, dedication is required and our government will at every step of the way search for a way to trip you up and mistakes in one's process of getting them off your back can be devestating to your case. This process is far from easy and the IRS counts on fear and intimidation, not to mention personal ignorance, to forestall anyone going this way. The point is, it does work and the difference between victory and defeat in cases I've seen is the amount of dedication and perserverence each individual has.This is not surprising as I'm sure you're aware of the dedication and perserverence of our IRS. I hope some of this helps.

Archer---The prior quote to this one i.e. by Cummings, is underlied by volumes of truth and it is the Constitutional status of the individual that plays the major role in the preperation of any case involving the IRS and for that matter any bureaucracy of our government. What power do you have, what power do they have, and how does one get the power they have back from them which then works to your advantage when used properly. It's interesting to note that in the Constitutional foundations of our country all power resides in the individual and so the necessity for dedication and perserverence to get it back.

Abolish the 16th Amendment!
It looks as if Waffler has never, ever read the 'Creature from Jekyll Island' and I doubt very much that Waffler would ever attempt to.

Mary, it's doubtful that Waffler can even read.

Waffler, you say I am "raising a different issue" and, "The issue raised by the quote is do people pay their bills out of fear." The issue is people paying a thieving tribute to gods and otherwise malignant totalitarian masters out of fear (not any other lawfully contracted bill) I've asked you to express the lawful nexus at which others own the fruits of my labors (you calling it income, tax, etc.). You have never answered the question as to a lawful nexus and you can not. You say, "the moment you have income a portion of it belongs to the governments". Why ? What or where is the lawful nexus ? Did I commit a crime and your referenced income portion is restitution ? Am I a government corporate entity owing my creator a tithe or offering ? The totality of your illegal response here would say that I can get together with a few of your neighbors, just because we want to (maybe thinking it is best for you or it will benefit you in some abstract or direct sort of way), to paint your house, mow your lawn, sweep and otherwise implement improvements then, if you didn't pay us what we demanded, you would be stealing from us. There are no words to describe how ridiculous your statement is. People pay government's larceny, not because they owe it or it belongs to someone else, they pay out of fear, pure and simple.

Waffler...a point of sale tax is all that would be required to sustain infrastructure in a "responsible" nation that minds its own damned business. Like the Constitution says it should.