The Colinies had a government called the Continental Congress which organized and won the war, then they had the Articles which did not work to well, then they had the Constitution. Exactly when was it that these people were totally devoid of government. We now look to progress in Iraq and Afganistan because of an evolving functioning governmental framework.

I like the quote, but I am wondering why a Communist nation like China for whom we are trying to change so that they have religious and politcal and press freedom etcetera, is already beating our butts economically. They have all the money and we are borrowing it from them. So what gives with this quote, kinda of makes it appear false don't we think. Maybe we are valuing the comfort and money obtained from using well made cheap foreign goods over the sacrifice of using shoody but expensive American goods, to the detriment of our hard won freedom.

Successful private citizens operate within a parameter and learn to make use of the established system set up by society and government. Thus Wm Penn's beautifully conceived and laid out town in the woods Philadelphia became the "workshop of the world" and the second largest city in the world (2d to London) as early as 1776. This commercial success would not have occurred without the foresight, planning and organizational ability of the Quakers. A Philadelphia motto describes Quaker success as "from the meeting house to the counting house". Most of what Babbington says seems of course true but society lays down the peace and securtiy in which private citizens may thrive.

Why just Americans? We go all over the world and set up others in other countries to make things for us, thus losing our jobs to them? States like Alabama and Tennessee, Pennsylvania and I don't know how many others probably Kentucky, incentiveize, induce, maybe bribe, give preferential tax treatments to folks like Kia, Saturn, Honda, Volkswagen and I don't know who else to bring jobs and industry to their locales while all the time stiffing the go it only Detroit Automakers. The free market if it ever existed ended many millenium ago. Nothin like independence and initiative but lets keep an eye out for a level playing field.

In the last 20 out of 28 years Republicans held the White House, without carefully checking the stats I believe every one of those 20 years was a deficit year. Clinton held sway the other 8 years and ran surpluses and paid down the debt accumutlated by the Republicans. Cheney's quote about deficits not mattering is a matter of public record. Greenspan and McCain and others have all said that Bush the Last's tax cuts were wrong and irresponsible and have led to the largest deficits and debt in history. I have no idea from where you get your inforation Warren, I will go goole the deficit figures and report back. Stay tuned maybe one of us can get educated.

robkenSRQ are you suggesting that we can live free and easy at hands of robots?

Yeah Warren Democrats have never worked a day in their lives and all that Republicans due is clip stock coupons. Some folk always fall for stereotypes. I think the best attitude is to be hard on oneself and easy on others. Thus I would make the emphasis to work hard yourself not to make sure the other guy works hard.

Also called Reagan-Bush-Cheney-ism. Isn't it Reagan who got us started down this path, Bushes kept us going and Cheney said five trillion dollars ago, "Deficits don't matter."

I think this agrees with what I was saying yesterday about confidence etcetera. While there are scams and theives it is not the major cause, the cause is confidence or lack thereof. What the mind can conceive it can create, if we see happy days, happy days will come to us.

The joy of enjoying the fruits of your own labor especially physical labor such as your own food produce or furniture etcetera cannot be overestimated. True independence means to be able to fend for yourself. Tell this to the inheritors of daddie's wealth, whether it be from a government or a relative. And the true joy may not be in the completion but in the activity of striving.

You have a point Logan.

Tony apparently never heard of the results of the American Civil Rights Movement or of Indian independence under Ghandi or of Nelson Mandela.

A high five between you and I Jim K.

What I have found on this site is generally what I perceive to be tax haters, die hard dogmatists, maybe anti-socialists, but definitely anti-social types, cop haters, firefighter haters etcetera. Closed minded people generally. I have thought of quitting these folk many times but remain as a public service to point out first of all their lies, illogical constructs and to counter their ill formed and ill conceived opinions. I don't consider hard headedness, pigheadness, lying or accepting of lies, insincerity of any kind as being a nice guy. Logan and Mike have on occasion modified there dogmatic mantra concerning "republic not a democracy" to at least accept that the "US is either a democracy or majority ruled society". For this tip of the hat to reasonableness I salute them but still feel I must be wary. Archer well he is beyond the pale. I have no agenda here except to be honest and to learn something where I can. A students thoughts and opinions should meander, it is the know it alls, the propagandists, the radicals, the would be dictators whose thoughts never deviate from their agenda.

I am glad that you see my opinions as meandering. To me that is my success and the measure of my open mindedness. Not like the dogmatists and set in concrete agendas of the closed minded you see on this site. The critical thinking related to observing that Washington according to many historians married for money and his quote that "most men will give up virture in return for a bribe". I think that juxtaposition is very ironic and that I was pretty smart to catch it, thank you very much. Archer accused my critical thinking or analysis as being unpatriotic and said that I must admire Hitler more than Washington. I mean come on.

I supported Bush in both his war efforts. I guess naively in the Iraq deal. Saddam's thumbing his nose at the UN I felt was the main cause, but yes maybe more sanctions and patience would have been more apporpriate. Since W had authority from world bodies and needed no authority in reference to Afghanistan I don't think he is subject to war crimes trials now. That the Iraqi fiasco was conducted badly I don't disagree but that the original intent was of evil or criminal intent I do disagree. It is a rare day that I am able to counter attacks on W.

Ben who were King's communists. I don't doublt you but I am interested to know who they were and what does that fact have to say about the meaning or truth of the quote.The blood feuds of the Middle East prove his point adequately. Violence results when two parties may not realize that there is a third way.

Made me think would assassinated leaders be as glorious if they had lived out their lives normally to old age: Lincoln, Kennedy, King. I remember the poem from High School, Ode To An Athelete Dying Young and the glory received from dying in ones prime. Mike I don't think it leaves out the individual.

Hey Mike how did you ever get government involved in this discussion. The guy quoted was a chemist, a nuclear scientist (Manhattan Project) frorensic or criminal investigator. It would appear that the crime he is discussing is "violation of law". You call crime anything that you personally dislike even if it is a law. To you the main crime is the fact that there are laws on the books. Thus I think you are a professional criminal.

Crime and Punishment Chris is a psychological study of a tormented murderer. Some folk like the Sopranos, Capone and others can live that way. We only see the glamour at the top. How about all of the other guys, "little fish" who get killed along the way. I lost a cousin in the Miami cocaine trade in 1977. His boat was going around in circles in Biscayne Bay and they had to drop into it by helicopter. He was alive on the deck but did not survive. His partner was dead floating in the water. Yeah he was living high for a little while. If you watch MSNBC on weekends with all of its prison shows I think you would get a different view about crime paying. As for me I just get bothered by the thought that I intentionally cheat someone. The punishment Dostoyevsky spoke of is the torture of ones own conscience.

Good response Chris, I appreciat it. I was shocked by Kennedy's remark also because we use the term "Free market" so flippantly but maybe it has never been free. Societies form and come together for mutual benefit, security and survival. They plan and institute systems and methodologies to reach that end. Thus Joesph was given the Prime Minister job of Egypt because of his plan to save crops for seven years to protect against famine. Our country does not operate with a free market. It was discovered and founded by companies granted the priviledge by the English Crown, the populated colonies were governed, controlled and taxed by the King. The new government in Washington established political,social, and commercial mechanisms for the new nation to operate under law. Government federal, state, and local constanly encourage, enhance and control enterprise, and markets. So maybe the term "free market" needs to be looked at a little deeper and more circumspectly. Your counter of Adam Smith and his invisible hand is good but I think it must include society or groups of individuals in the society as actors in that invisible activity. A centally planned economy as we know has proved to be a disaster, just like a supply side trickle down economy. A demand and bottom up economy where the market listens to individuals and society would appear to be best.

The only guys that give Logan a rise are the Founding Gods, I was not speaking for myself Logan but repeating what Phil Donohue said. Those who speak of cult of personality and can not stand for any critical reading of the history of the Founder Gods needs to go hunting and gathering I think.

Thanks for all the compliments Mike. When you accuse then I knwo that I am on the right track. I don't know what you are smoking today, some more of the mahareeshi stuff I guess, but I got to go get me a White Owl. You the victimless crime guy, the cop hater, the firefighter hater, you who love soldiers but hate officers, I really do wonder about you Mikey.

Recently I heard none other than Robert Kennedy, Jr. say on national television, "There is no such thing as a free market, the free market is a myth." In economics they talk about the decision making of the economic man, this is a man with all knowledge of the economy and his options. Such a man does not exist in reality and maybe Kennedy is correct about the free market being a myth also, thus Mr. Branden's quote is null and void.

Y'all need to read "Crime and Punishment" you know Dostoyevsky, ever heard of him? Crime pays if you have no conscience for people like Capone and Leona Helmsley. For most of us mere mortals we would probably suffer with the idea of violating our conscience.