Public discourse of any type is useless if one believes that the society is not one that is ruled by or at least informed by public opinion or majority views which is generally called democracy. Why people would express their views on this site or anywhere else if they do not believe their views are of any use to anyone is beyond me. If we are not in a majority ruled or democratic society of what avail is their opinions. Mike of Norwalk is the King of Sound Bites with his "victimeless crimes" etc.

Well said Ken. And this taking back or reforming of our government is what democracy is all about. If folks do not believe in public opinion or in debating and convincing each other of points of view and that in the end we are ruled by public opionion but are ruled by some concrete natural law and thus we have no say in the matter why do they come on sites like this and try to convince others of their views. The very fact that they choose to express themselves and to convince others of their philosophy or their policies is proof positive that they do believe in the power of public opinion and in spite of themselves they are invoved in the democratic process.

Bryan states "no government needed" so why Mike do you say a "government" of law is needed. If law is natural why do we have to even talk about it and have government. What about the government that infests every land, what have you to say about that.

Logan and John Adams deplore and deplored democracy and Ken from Milford and many of the rest of you are calling for "us" to take back our country. You all are calling for democracy in spite of yourselves and in spite of Logan and Adams. Unless by "us" you mean some 1 or 2 percent of the people. Democracy inlcludes constant reform and rebellion, yes throw the bums out is always in favor, but don't take away our right to throw the bums out by enacting some sacred law to which we all must cowtow to making Kens rallying cry of none effect . You all just make me want to exclaim, "Forgive them for they know not what they say."

You guys have failed to give me a decent example. Were the conqurerors of the ages democracies ie Tamerlane, Alexander, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin? Hell no. Yes societies fail, and suckers never think that people can be like the aforementioned. I respectfully suggest that "law" did not stop any of the aforementioned from doing whatever the hell they wanted to do. Law is nothing but writing on a piece of paper, even if it is posted for all to see it is useless unless it has an enforcer. That enforcer is called the Sheriff or police etcetera. That enforcer is powerless if he is overrun by a larger force, thus he must in the long run serve and listen to that larger force. That my friends is democracy.

Can any of you all explain why "government" has existed for all these thousands of years, if it is so unnecessary and so evil. I know of no where in the world from the smallest aboriginal villages to the largest nation where "government" does not exist. What the hell really gives with this dicothomy between reality and your rantings and ravings about the fact that governments even exist? I respectfully suggest if all "governments" were disbanded overnight, one day later new ones would be established. The King is dead long live the King.

Funny, and thought provoking.

It is amazing that the abuse of power of a enumerated by Logan have been committed by dictatorships but he fails to mention them, on the other hand does he have an acutal example of where democracy actually did the theoretical, and rhetorical things he suggests. It has been shown time and time again that majority rule, democracy has done the exact opposite and prevented strong men dictators from doing exactly what Logan says. Where democracy has failed such as in Germany, Russia and Iraq dictatorial mayhem insued. Mankind is fallible, we will keep diagnosing and solving problems to the best of our abilities 'till the end of time.

Inane "humor" like this causes unnecessary disrespect for organizations local, state, federal, and yes international that provide needed services to humanity. As soon as someone is in need of help due to a natural disaster, financial stupidity, etcetera they call on those entities that they have been maligining so carelessly. Human nature and the public have no limit to their depravity.

Archer my ideal of the bureaucrat is that of Sergeant Joe Friday, just the facts mam just the facts. He kind of walked and acted like a dead stiff. Yup I loved Joe Friday and Boston Blackie too!

Right on RKA, you influence the majority as much as anyone else no more and no less and that is the essence of democracy. Mike's disappointment stems from the fact that he wants to dictate to the majority, this is why he cannot understand or appreciate or have patience with the concept of democracy.

The American people have it within their power to reduce the size of bureaucracy, police etcetera. All they have to do is to start obeying the laws and regulations that they have established for themselves to follow. It is a wayward people that do not follow their own laws. The only explanation is that a substantial number are nothing more than children, and I am not talking about the under 18 year old crowd.

RKA I am not sure who you mean as "THEY showed us the dream of freedom, conservatism and liberty", I can guess and I humbly suggest they are charlatans, liars and ninconpoops. Now you send us Sarah, what are we to think of her and her style?

The quote has an underlying syllogistic basis as follows: Politics and thus its policy takes an interest in you, You take an interest in you, Thus: it logically follows that you should therefore take an interest in politics and its policies. The fact that ten or so persons contributre to this site is proof that they take an interest in themselves and are trying to take an interest in and influence politics and its policies. Ipso facto!

Jim K, my Arkansas address is not correct. I picked that city and state just as a lark, so lay off of Arkansas. I do not represent their opinion. And you don't certainly represent Texas as attested to by the gentleman from Austin who often contradicts your lame attitudes. I know many Texans, Texans are friends of mine, and Jim K you are no representative of Texas. If you would ever pause to think and consider what a quote says and its' implication you would see that politics/policy effects us all and if you fail to participate suffer in silence. A larger participation is equivalent to a "greater democracy". Policy by the "demos" the people. Stop that knee from jerking Jim and transfer the energy to your brain.

A great compliment to bureaucrats. That is exactly the way they should appear to a wayward, shifty, dishonest public. Bureaus in the US Govt were established to overcome the problem of political appointees and the dishonesty of the spoils system. When a bureaucrat seems stern, or straight laced to you, he is doing his job to uphold and protect the populace at large. Have some love and respect for these people. If you have ever worked with the public you know that they are no prize either. Guess Who above is right on here, "If you change the way you look at bureaus and bureaucrats you and all of us will have a better life." Like the signs on the semi-truck trailers say "Compliant Driver"'; when the populace is in compliance with the laws that they pass the work of bureaucrats will not seem so harsh.

To personal to have universal meaning. I think Tom Daschle has a great voice, Sarah I don't like her voice. Was Ari referring to all popular poiticians or to a specific individual?

A great argument for democracy, one man one vote, get involved, or suffer in silence. Also an argument to advance a more direct democracy.

Thanks Mike, I responded to your What? in the other days quote about Parties.

Brilliant post Warren, just brilliant.

Only when there is more than one of us, then we must communicate and decide; (compromise) "what shall be our policy"; thus politics.

Try as we must, it is difficult not to have interests as well as principles.

PS Mike it occurred to me that because you believe or think that the US is a politcal idea layed down 232 years ago and therefore runs only in accordance with that "natural law" public opinion is of no import in its society. Thus you cannot comprehend either the quote or my response to it. I think your belief that we are a society, nation or government of natural law versus public opinion is naive and shallow and hinders your progress in matters of public policy debate. That is okay I think Stalin or Lenin were also naive on such matters and could not comprehend the idea of public opinion.

Mike I suggest you read the philosophies of Eisenhower and Kennedy and you may get an answer to your What? To be "ruled from the center" means the center of public opinion. The two major parties usually absorb far out ideas like abolition etcetera and make them their own, thus the parties are not purely ideological but free conduits for people of somewhat similar sensitivities but still free to mold the party platform. When the two parties "fight it out" in Congress one policy emerges and that, due to the function of compromise, is the Politcal Center of opinion. Do you feel better now Mike?

This is why there are only two major parties. They absorb ideas from all sides. As Eisenhower said America will be ruled from the center of opinion. And as Kennedy said "Some times party demands to much"