Cowards are the natural born killers who stand yards away from their adversary and shoot them with a gun rather than going mano a mano with them. Yeah well as we know or at least as the movies tell us too many in the west were not responsible. You know we are sunk in this country, nation, republic and democracy when we call the cops and judges the definition of fascism.

Ken citizen disarmament started in the wild, wild west when they made guys either leave their guns at the sherriffs office or at least outside of the saloon. Where the hell did our common sense go? Was that about control, yes absolutely it was, and very much needed control they thought. They glad to get federal marshalls, Wyatt Earp etcetera. Sometimes we need to be thankful for control and not be so childish, dissembling, and traitorious about accepting it.

I meant to add J.Q. Adams quote especially for the traitors among us who preach secession, disunion, and have a warped since of freedom. They are just spoiled brats in my view. When things get bad enough "then will be the reason for reverting to the precedents which occurred at the formation and adoption of the Constitution, to form a more perfect Union, by dissolving that which could no longer bind, and to leave the separated parts to be reunited by the law of political gravitation to the center." That time has arrived genetlemen. America is admired around the world for its freedom and affluent life, winning the war, temporarily at least, against terrorism, semi success in Iraq. Europe admires a democracy that allows a Barack Obama to run for President and the American people who are so magnanimous to allow such a thing. The seceesionists, dissemblers , and traitors on this site are in their own little world that has little bearing upon the real world in which we live.

I would love to find some agreement on what it is to be an American. I mean like loyalty to the idea expressed in the pledge about being indivisible, about a society of law, etcetera. The quote was a broad side by a tax protestor before he went to jail. Union is the source of our liberty. Masschusetts would have been crushed by the Brits if Virginia had not rallied to her side. And Union and unity is the answer to our common problems not the dissembling disunion and secession, which is treason, expressed by so many. While we discuss these inane issues the society faces real problems of illegals, energy, and terrorism. You are probably right Warren and of course literatue and quotes have a life of their own and sometimes we never look deeper into the person. But maybe we should because otherwise we are just talking about nothing and are no better than 400 million dollar talk show hosts (Lou Dobbs, Russ etc.) who get off and build their careers out of taking someone out of context. This guy Ellsworth was nothing more than a liar and a crook. He lied under penalties of perjury. He was mouthing off just to make himself feel good. We should not give the rat any kudos.

Some of the man's last words before he went to jail for six years for tax violations. Was it Shakespeare who said "I thinketh thou protest a bit to much." He may have protected and provided for his family in the short run by robbing the legal tax system but then shortchanged his family by going to jail for six years. Maybe he should have been more circumspect. A man who respresents himself is said to be a fool. This guy sure was. Editor if your quote is from someone of notoreity rather than the right side of the tracks do you think it should be noted some how. Are we going to debate the philosophies of felons, murderers and tax protestors.

Paine was about Union against tyranny. Those who want to disband and stress individualism regadless of the common dangers are missing some points it seems.

Are not those uninjured folks the so-called "bleeding hearts". Most people don't care if an issue does not effect them personally. That is why we need the "bleeding hearts", cops and a justice system that does.

Lincoln resolved Adams delemma as to whether the Union was a matter of heart or law. "We gather together on a great battlefield ......to determine whether a nation so conceived can long endure." Well it has and it will. Without union there would have been no Liberty. The start of union was when Virginia came to the moral and physical support of Massachusetts. Without colonial support Mass. would have been subjugated by the Brits and so would have each and every other one of the colonies. The colonies fairly quickly recognized that their safety lay in seeing things "continintally" rather than regionally.

Does the US Governments no call list protect or interfere with the right to be left alone. Those called are left alone but those trying to earn a living are bothered.

I speak of democracy in the same way and with the same love for it as Churchill, Bush and hundreds of other political leaders down through the eons of time. In a democracy thank God no one has absolute authority but the people taken together are sovereign. You protest to much Archer, keep it simple and most of all honest.

Ever hear of the Louisiana Purchase. Wasington bought it from Paris. Washington created territories and sold and gave away some of the land to homesteaders and when the territories had sufficient population they voted for state hood. Most of the land in the west still belong to Washington. You said you believe the union is divisible not indivisible. You are a traitor to the Union Archer.

Archer Oregon is a Federal Land state. 50.3% of the land still belongs to the citizens of the United States through ownership by the legal entitiy known as "the United States of America" headquarted in Washington, DC. It was the visionaries in that fair city that made possible the inclusion of the western half of middle north america, (the portion between Mexico and Canada) part of the nation. If they want to go let them pay the rest of us a nice rebate or refund for this land. Could be a nice piece of change for each of us. Whadda ya say! Have a little respect for the property owner here the USA.

Mike have you heard of the brouhaha on the news where the NRA is suiing Disneyland. It seems Disney is telling its' employees to leave their guns at home. I have a slew of guns and I subscribe to hunting mags. have skinned and tanned my own deer hide. Many of my hunting friends feel that the NRA is a childish organization that gives hunters and gun owners a bad name.

Mike a soverergin has absolute authority. If you have absolute authority then you sir can do anything you want to do.You may break any law and command any police force to leave you alone. You sir are not a soveregin you are are a subject of the Constitution. The Constitution is the Supreme Law or Soveregin of this Land. Since our Constitution dictates a democratic form of government you together with your fellows and your enemies in society execise a brief form of temporary absolute power on election day. Archer one day we claim we are under the Articles the next day the Constitution. Keep us posted where you wonder off to next. Mike you Archer and Logan state that you believe that the Union is not "indivisible" but "divisible" thus you and they may or may not be men without a country but you are traitors to the idea, concept and fact of the indivisbility of the Union. Archer if any of the western states wish to go their own way let us make sure that they give all of the land that belongs to us the people of the United States who own it since it was obtained by Washington, DC in our name.

The United States is seldom referred to as a Republic only in the pledge. I saw a French aeroplane on TV the other day. On its' side was the words "Republic Francaise". Have never seen the phrase "United States Republic" or "Republic USA" anywhere at anytime. It is however a republic which as we all know means nothing more than that it is sovereign within its borders. The style of this country is "the United States of America" period, nothing more and nothing less.

Step out your door Archer, every thing is socialist. If one cites a University study the great unwashed right wing types say it is socialist. If one states a practice done in a foreign country you say it is socialist. Get over it man. Global warming is socialist.

Your understanding about the history of the pledge is correct. Tell Logan. If you believe that the Union is divisible rather than indivisible you are a TRAITOR to the latter notion and a traitor to the concept of the union. That is your priviledge.

The reversing of the Goden Rule simply implies that you are not less than others nor are they less than you. If you extend the Golden Rule to others you have a right to hope that it would also be extended to you in return. I find it is extended to me every day. People in my town are wonderful.

An armed Disneyland should be our rallying cry! How is the word "arms" defined? Does it have to be guns. Could we amend or pass laws defining the word "arms". Thus we could reduce the level of violence by saying that the "right to bear knives or billy clubs" shall not be infringed, thus leaving way to take guns off of the street. If international disarmament is possible why not citizen disarmament. Thus what does "properly armed" really mean? The one thing guns are not to be used for is defense against the sovereign ie. the cops, the state, the Feds etcetera. This is the big lie of the gun lobby that guns are to protect us from government. The vote is our only protection from government.

Sovereignity means absolute authority. There can be only one sovereign within a geographic area. Some person or entity may have sovereignity for a particular issue which cannot be interfered with even by the general sovereign. Thus the individual is sovereign concerning what he may eat for breakfast. For the benefit of living together we give up sovereignity to ever larger groups and governments. Definitionally once given up it cannot legally be taken back at will but can only be given back by the upstream soveregin. The only other recourse would be to arms. Further if you by into the argument that their can be only one absolute authority by definition then people (plural) cannot be sovereign but the people (singular) can be. Hamilton was probably waxing poetic about the state of affairs after freedom from the Crown and adoption of the Constitution.

Representatives are always or at least often torn between taking a poll of their constitutents or in voting their own conscience. Once elected he or she has that option. The constitutents can vote them out at the next election or maybe their is a recall petition possible for representatives. It is very unclear what else Hamilton is talking about. Representatives are leaders also and not just monkeys to do what their constituents say.

HaHaHa! You ignoramus Logan. Take your own advice Logan and read history. The pledge originally did not have the phrase "under God" even in it. It was added in the early '50's during Eisenhower's term. If you had been paying attention recently Adams was quoted as saying and I paraphrase, "The creation or founding of this nation and constitution was not done by reliance on God or gods but on the reliance of reason alone." Talk about 101 courses where do you get this crap you say. The nation is today as religious and irreligious as it ever was. And the nation has been just as much "under God" in the years before the pledge was ever written circa 1905, (a period from 1776 to circa 1905) during the earlier pledge 1905 to 1950, and under the new "under God" pledge 1950 to present. You never cease to amaze Logan.

Speaking of ignoramususes Logan the word is secede not succeed. And you have overused the phrase 101 so many times that you are really making a bore ass out of yourself not to mention your pathethic name dropping. Have Ambassador Bruton contact me I assume that you and Archer recite the Pledge this way: "I pledge alligiance to the flag of the state ah republic of which I reside and to the voluntary union to which it has conjoined itself until further notice and to the one disparate state out of 50 disparate states, for which it stands 50 divisible nations under God with liberty and justice for all." With your expressed stupidity Logan I would shy away from reading at least the philosophy and history that you have read it has obviously fried your brain. I still say y'all are traitors to the Union if you do not believe in "the United States of America. One nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE," If you believe that it is divisible then you cannot in honesty recite the pledge. You are then a traitor to the Union. Better for you to be a traitor to the Union than a traitor to your own conscience and intellectual understanding. I am truly sorry for you and Archer's conscience and intelltual understanding. I know not how it got that way. Hell Archer believes we are still under the Articles. I truly respect your rights to wish that the United States could be divisible or that states could secede. I respect your rights to hate the Federal Government of these 50 states. I am sorry that you do not have better knowledge, logic or legal argument in order to accomplish your goals of defending secession and deconstruction of the Fed, but to rely on specious definitions, arguments and twisting of words and clear legal precedent is not the answer and does not become you.

You are correct Archer, but observers from all over the world recognize that the American people or more correctly United States persons are a unique populaton with a unique personality and value system which was as is formed by their history and the early documents of the founding fathers. This nation of people like most nations do try to form and maintain a government.

You are a traitor to the Union Archer which is okay. You are loyal to what you believe in but you are a traitor to the Union. Your logic however is flawed. Once an entity gives up absoute power or authority it cannot take it back. The states by joining made a one way decision. Legally they are stuck. Now the Soviet Union would be more to your liking for just by its name it asserted that it was a union of sovereign states. The US is not a Union of sovereign states.