“Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have.”

You got that right!

Much of that safe thing has been stripped away.

Yes, as long as its Liberty and not a facade

If you think it is a facade, and don't think it is liberty, do something to fix it; for example, get rid of the social safety nets which are the greatest motivator and liberator there is. The freedom to fail gives the incentive to succeed.

I think both Robert and helorat are absolutely right here. What is masquerading as liberty is nothing more than an ability to get into debt. Though we enjoy more freedoms here than most nations, those freedoms are now at the whim of the plutocracy and otherwise democratic oligarchy and are not secured as inalienable rights. The erosion of such rights, freedoms, and liberty are escalating exponentially. I have gone to court regularly, helped to try and pass legislation, donate money and at least 40 hrs a month to charity, and am just short a few million other willing participants. Government is corrupt through and through and apathy and the artificial need to keep up with the Jones' is a very powerful foe.

Dang helorat, somebody thinks like me.

Given the limits of my fellow man, I prefer to take my chances at success than plod along for an assured state of mediocrity. And there is great need of people willing to shoulder debt, else with whom would the wealthy invest their money in? And the freedoms we enjoy are still assured I think by the fact that the armed people in the US far exceed the US military strength, and that our military would be highly unlikely to take up arms against the People they are sworn to defend. Now the police and other "Security" organs have no such restraint. Indeed they would do their best to enforce unjust infringements upon our liberties. Fortunately they are no match for the armed public at large in pitched battle. Call me a pessimist, but I think that is the greatest defense against oppression we have. And if you think the US Public is oppressed, I recommend that you take a world tour - then think again.

Liberty is not a right but a law of nature - Mike, did I get correct?

RBESRQ, pretty close. Liberty is the result of the law of nature's application. The more laws lived (and/or available to live) the greater the liberty (borrow only what you can pay back, my freedom ends at your nose, etc.) . The fewer natural laws available to harmonize with; and/or the enforcement of codes, rules, statutes, etc. that are contrary to natural law, exponentially diminishes liberty. I know that's probably as clear as mud. I never claimed to be a word smith.

Robert, natural law is any phenomenon that has a natural consequence. By way of example: you make molecules vibrate quickly, then you measure the applied law by a scale of heat. Inflation is a natural law phenomenon that describes when there is to much of one thing chasing another. Waffler believes that when a majority gets together, they can reverse or stop inflation by simply passing a rule or statute (they can't). 2 multi-faceted elements governed by natural law are the nobility of life and property rights. Larceny is but one generic title given to a whole scope of natural law infractions. The cause and effect of larceny may take generations to manifest but, it will. Again, I may not be helping much in your understanding of natural law but, we'll keep trying.

So good to see the likes of Helorat, Eric et al back on these pages. Not that I agree with them all that much but hey that is liberty and I am all for it. Bring it on!