The fact that honor and humility are potentials in the human, does seem to indicate there is an innate place for those potentials to arise -- without a place for them, they could not be. However, I suppose the same argument could be used to bear credence to the 'fall of man' or 'original sin,' too.

There's plenty to learn from all members of the family all the time -- and we do. Children are 'innocent' to a degree -- they have less programming than adults, there is less of an 'act' being put on, and it's still immature in its development, easy to detect. But practice makes perfect! ;-) I'm not sure whether honor and humility is built in -- where is that in the animal world? Is a conscience in-born or cultivated? The old 'nature vs. nurture' question. The answer is BOTH. ;-)

Can children detect the hypocrisy of adults? YES! So, I do watch for that in children -- they are very good BS meters!

I am happy to have struck a nerve, Waffler. You hate me and are glad to be my enemy? In response to agreeing with a Native American? You may as well have wiped them out yourself with such an attitude. I do not hate you, Waffler, far from it -- in fact I do look forward to your posts, maybe more than anyone else's. ;-) It is your ideas that I have a problem with -- illogical and fallacious, and the perfect parroting of the party line. Like a fish that does not know its in water.

Understand something: the Americans BROKE from European 'culture' by declaring their freedom from Crowns, Popes and Dictators -- treason! Americans introduced a republican form of government, based partly upon the League of the Iroquois. You will not find such a Declaration anywhere in Europe.

However, the USA has always been under attack by European forces, military, economic and political. The US government gradually morphed into a de facto super State upon which all the sovereign States became dependent for the issuance of 'credit' to survive. The statist-European mindset made a resurgence, and conquering lands and people became popular again. This is NOT Americanism! Chief Joseph is merely pointing out the hypocrisy of Americans.

"Let me be a free man...free to travel... free to stop... free to work... free to choose my own teachers... free to follow the religion of my Fathers... free to think and talk and act for myself."

That IS the American way!

Jefferson asks some profound questions -- still relevant today. I'm not sure what Jefferson means by "permitted to qualify for the duties of a citizen." I'd like Jefferson to expand on that. ;-)

I've always thought that at graduation I should sign the Declaration of Independence, to make it MY declaration. To become a naturalized citizen of the UK, one swears allegiance to the Queen, to become a naturalized US citizen, one swears to uphold the Constitution, but native born citizens don't ever have to make those declarations.

What good is democracy if the people are not committed to the principles of Liberty? What is to prevent the misguided masses into voting away the rights of everyone in their attempt to steal from the wealthy? Unfortunately, today, government 'public' school curriculum teaches dependence and subservience, preparing students for either white collar or blue collar careers -- superiors and inferiors, dominants and subservients, rulers and the ruled.

Travel to a 3rd world country in which the common people must provide for themselves or perish. No matter what promises the government may make, they will have to figure out a way to raise food, make shelter, and trade among each other -- regulations be damned. If something is broken, someone will figure out how to fix it -- and quite happily. I have learned a great deal from 'poor' people who are richer in so many ways than their 'Western' counterparts which live like royalty in comparison and are never satisfied. I have tremendous respect for such people.

Really, Waffler, you were most inspired by Emerson's 'Self-Reliance' ... what happened?! Funny, the very same points are made in the Declaration of Independence a hundred years earlier -- in fact, America is founded upon such principles! I'd be curious on how you might twist Emerson's words to support your worship of authority and dependence upon the State. Once again, you demonstrate the quote by repeatedly referring to authority rather than principle -- this quote is about YOU!

The denial of individual wholeness from which charity and compassion flow is the creed of the ruling class, of which the Waffler's and Reston's are the plebiscites demanding their share of the spoils of war. They have been taught to obey in return for the favor of Caesar. They know not how to provide for themselves and cannot conceive of a free and prosperous man without the help of the Crown. They were educated by the State and further the slave-mentality of the State -- they love their servitude, and insist it upon ALL (to be fair). It's a religion of Power, for the 'common good'. It is self-deception on the grandest of scales, delusion and illusion, unfulfilling in the end. Their lust will NEVER be satisfied, nor is it meant to be -- that is how you rule. Is it any surprise that 'zombie' films are so popular right now? That's the logical conclusion of continuing in this same direction. Wake the frack up!

Self-discovery is the best -- questioning one's own answers and answering anew... to be examined yet again. The truth stands on its own; it is for me to realize it.

Robert, I consider you a fellow journeyman on the same road. It is an honor to walk with you. Cheers.

Thank you, Robert, for the personal history. Sounds like you had it pretty good and have always had a heart for the commoner who hasn't. Your eloquence and communication has always been a sign to me that you had smart and supportive parents -- in the Aristotle/Plato category no doubt. I think you would have made a good parent, too. And as a good friend once told me there was never a stronger believer in God than an avowed atheist. ;-) Cheers!

Robert, you are merely attempting to substitute one dogma for another. Why are "children who are highly receptive to parental behavior" considered to be the problem unless you are using the school to change the culture of the family altogether? Your argument is EXACTLY the same as that of the religionists, with the exception that YOU do not consider yourself in disharmony. You didn't like being judged for being gay, and atheism would be a natural reaction -- and you have fought not only to be accepted as is, but INSIST on acceptance by coercion (mandatory education by the state). It's to the point now that some poor kids don't know what sex they are -- and encouraged to ignore their own genitals while in the pursuit of the question "who am I and why am I here?" Truth is no more valued in secular/government schools than in the religious schools.

Whether you realize it or not, Robert, children learn the majority of everything from their family circle. You don't have to be a Plato or Aristotle to raise smart children -- after all, Plato or Aristotle are NOT teaching at the public school either -- that is the point!! I'm sorry, Robert, but my public school 2nd grade teacher was DUMB and spent most of her time dealing with unruly kids bused in from the projects. Government-run anything is more akin to raising beasts of burden than self-determined responsible people. Being a white child, I was blamed for every hardship of the poor blacks on the other side of town. I hadn't realized how much I had been part of the problem (I was only 8 years old). What a mind f@ck... Thankfully I did have a family that was productive, liked to read and travel, and was able to put it all in context.

Robert must have had a pretty bad childhood to prefer institutionalism to family. You talk of love and peace being the key to education, I can only assume you did not find that at home. For that, my heart goes out to you.

Great comments! I don't think government has EVER taught us to govern ourselves -- otherwise they would be out of a job.

Putting government in charge of raising children into adults results in a generation of automatons ready to plug into the statist machine. Those that openly reject the program will get special treatment -- drugs, counseling, and down-right intimidation. I loved the library, I hated classes...

When a curriculum is dogmatic rather than a dialogue, it matters not whether it is religious or secular, it is indoctrination. Do I go to school to study and explore, or am I merely following a program of someone else's design?

The secularists do have a valid argument against religious education -- just as in Galileo's time, when observable science threatened long-held beliefs and the organized Church would not/could not acknowledge the truth of the newly discovered science or history, the student was faced with a choice of rejecting that which threatens tradition or being rejected by the religious community upon which fellowship he depends.

The Church has had to concede to a great many scientific discoveries or risk losing credibility. Particularly Christianity -- "the truth shall set you free" being a foundational pillar, the search for truth and being truthful are key tenets of the religion. So either the religion can integrate new discoveries in science and history or it is simply riding on the indoctrinated, who will eventually pass away taking their customs with them.

But today, as Mike so eloquently puts it, the secularists have merely become a new 'theocracy' of 'settled science' -- any challenge to their sacred cows is considered a violation of their rights. Like the religions of old, the secularists have become a power unto themselves, placing themselves as 'gods' to rule over the 'common good' of the poor and weak. It is the same old con for giving up one's power! Ruling the people is a very OLD racket, and the NEW theocracy follows the tried and true practices of the OLD theocracies and the monarchies which supported them.

The 'liberal' argument against the religious right was very valid 50 years ago, and the Churches holding the hard right have been losing numbers. But progressive liberals holding the hard left are now feeling the brunt of their own ignorance. They are skewing the scientific observations to suit their theories. They say that the science is settled -- science is NEVER settled, ask Stephen Hawking who has given up trying to prove black holes exist because he can't.

I've attended private schools and public schools in different parts of the country. I've educated my children in private, public, and home-schools. The learning occurs in the dialogue -- without that, it is just broadcasting, and McDonald's jingles will beat out the Pythagorean theorem every time.

Note that ALL of the ivy league universities were originally religious seminaries. The American system of jurisprudence is based on canonical law -- from the Roman Catholics. A Jesuit education had been considered the best education you could get for a thousand years -- and they did not reject science.

American public/government schools have an entirely different agenda than promoting discovery and enlightenment -- they are doing exactly what they blamed the religious right for doing -- teaching dogma and ideology rather than free thought, reason, and honest dialogue. They are employment centers for their theocratic and unionized class -- living off of government checks rather than the payments of their clients (the students); they answer to no one but the political bosses of the day.

And children KNOW they are being fed a bunch of crap -- just like the kids in the religious schools when questions about the age of the universe surface.

The search for Truth remains an individual endeavor. It has never been packaged ready-made to turn over to another -- sure there are millions of books and some classics everyone should read -- but an honest inquiry creates a placeholder for the discovery to come. Without asking the question, someone giving you the answer has no place to put it. ;-)

A good education requires an honest inquiry. A person with a lot of questions who will not be easily distracted from his/her pursuit will uncover many secrets of the universe. Sharing them is the education of the future. The Truth is always in front of me; the only opposition to it is what I bring ... ;-)

Robert, if you know what you are looking for, you can find it off-campus as well! If I read every book on my own without being told to, does it count? Do I read for credit or for knowledge? Is my 'masters degree' a true measure of the 'level of mastery' I have acquired or just a receipt for 'paid in full'?

Da Vinci was unlettered as were many 'geniuses' throughout history. Where are the likes of Jefferson, Adams and Washington, who were brilliant in their 20's -- such wisdom can hardly be found in professors in their 50's today. When colleges start churning out Thomas Jefferson's (who wrote the Declaration of Independence at 27 years old) perhaps then it will be worth the money. In the mean time, my true 'education' is the result of the questions I ask and my satisfaction (or lack thereof) with the 'answers.' ;-)

Well, if tolerance is the highest result of education, then what the hell is being taught in colleges today! ;-) Diversity training is not necessarily teaching tolerance, but division. Teaching the fundamentals that connect us all does not require $25,000 a year, perhaps that's why it's just not included any more. While individualism is protected for 'minorities' (they might 'lose' their identity if we all don't buy into it), the common people must adjust and conform and be 'tolerant' of those who are essentially intolerant of others.

The more I think of it, the more I question this whole 'tolerance' thing. Obviously everything cannot be tolerated. Tolerance is a discipline in the face of opposition, but it should not be a surrender or a giving up of one's own volition and responsibilities.

SCSURFR, Buddha includes himself as a teacher. The quote absolutely still applies. "Don't take my word for it, do your own due diligence," is essentially the root message.

Thanks to Carlton for the official definition of fascism. Fascists are nationalist socialists, as is evidenced in the acronym for the NAZI party. The Nazis are to the 'right' of the communists, but they are to the left of Classic Liberalism -- otherwise known as Libertarianism, today, as the word 'liberal' has been co-opted by the totalitarians.

FDR's 'New Deal' was the implementation of fascism in the US. The US has never gone off that road. The 10 planks of communism (totalitarianism) have nearly all been implemented in the USA to the point that the average American does not know his/her own power/responsibilities. The federal government employs millions of people, all paid for by the labors of the non-government employees. Servitude to the state, essentially, with no choice, no sovereignty, no power.

What absolutely floors me is that the American language has become so Orwellian that lies are truth and liberty is slavery. As Adams said, the revolution will be in the minds of the American people -- if it is not there, it cannot be.

I definitely understand Ken, Allyn's point. "Know ye the truth and the truth will set you free." But how do we ultimately determine truth? Or right? Or good? Yes, there are Bibles and scrolls, but ultimately it is a personal journey of conscience and the heart, for where else does one weigh the truth?

If "after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings" I believe the truth is conducive of these attributes. The 'truth' may be eternal, but discerning it is still personal and individual. The willingness to be wrong goes a long way towards staying on 'the path.'

Thanks to Anne Cleveland for her well-spoken argument. Waffler is the product of socialist education, as you can tell from his Marxist excuses.

What Waffler has no experience or knowledge of are "societies and communities" self-organized by independent and responsible people. Free association among free people, who pool their resources together voluntarily and by consent. Their contributions are their gifts, not duties. Everyone brings something to the party, and no one expects to live off another's labor.

If all the government schools did was teach reading, writing, arithmetic, it wouldn't require 12 years, I'll tell you that. I have my great-grandmother's school notebooks from 5th grade, and she had perfect penmanship, read voraciously, and understood the accounting for managing a farm.

Of course, "folks" want schools. The 'school' is not the issue, it's the 'curriculum' and whether you must accept it or not. Compulsory 'education' by the state is the foundation of totalitarianism, no matter what its form. Collectivist thought and conditioning reigns supreme in compulsory education. It is control -- mind-control, even -- not empowerment. It worked on Waffler -- he joined the federal government and is now living off his IRS pension. He never ceases to defend the thievery of the IRS for the "common good." Classic Marxism.

SCSURFR, Jefferson inherited his slaves with mortgages, as they were considered property. Jefferson could not free his slaves unless the debts were paid. Had the Continental Congress kept the anti-slavery clause in the Declaration of Independence that Jefferson wrote, Jefferson's slaves would have been freed.

A perpetual needle in my arm to send lifeblood to the State, mostly to feed government employees -- it may not be a death sentence outright, but killing the old milk cow comes later. Government services are crap! Government health care is crap! Government rations are crap! Government housing is crap! We get the message: 'Eat crap and die.'

Reston, what about taxing the labors of the people? Is there a lawful limit? What exactly is 'Big Business'? And what is the danger? It seems to me that you are merely calling for the government to be the biggest business of them all -- the same dangers apply. If greed is the enemy, why create seats of power for the greedy to seize? I suppose as long as you get your little subsidy from the State, it matters not what the politicians do to everyone else. You are bought and paid for -- that's where your loyalty is. The common good is the liberty of all -- a far cry from a monolithic centralized bureaucracy you have depended on since a child (by your own admission).

Reston, who determines my 'responsibilities'? The common good is defined by whom? I have a real responsibility to feed and clothe myself -- that is not YOUR responsibility, nor is it my responsibility to feed and clothe you. It is for every man's conscience to determine the 'common good' -- the voluntary contribution to which is true compassion. Reston frames his argument in terms of 'responsibility to the common good' -- the key difference is the definition of 'responsibility.' If imposed or forced, then it's not a responsibility but a duty imposed without consent. It is not 'service' but 'servitude.'

The communists'/socialists' clarion call is "we are victims and oppressed, and we demand you take care of us as you would your own 'privileged' children." This is the oldest communist trick in the book. Rally the minorities (blacks, women, gays, atheists) as an oppressed class, and subvert the very meaning of responsibility until it means its polar opposite. Unemployed slaves demanding their slavery upon all in the name of "fairness." Hence the rise in the field of psychiatry to define/redefine behavior to suit the cultural Marxist agenda. 'Normal' becomes abnormal, and self-delusion is not only tolerated but the rest of us are supposed to 'celebrate' it as well. The emperor has no clothes! ;-)

How do you think the uber-wealthy got that way? Government contracts!! Follow the money -- this is the globalist aristocracy. And just like the favored Court of the Crown, their wealth comes from the King's subjects. War takes on many forms -- as does servitude. The Waffler's of this world merely wish to find favor with the Crown, as they have seen the alternative. A house slave is preferable to a field slave.

warren nails it!