And all propaganda is so insidious that people accept it as truth after only a few repetitions. The members of Congress tell people black is white and white is black with only one purpose in mind---re-election! Their pretense is that they are doing all they can for the good of the people and the people are fooled into believing (everytime) that what is being done is for their own good! Bah-humbug! And Merry Christmas to all the Christians too!

My dear friend, It is not a lie. Social Security has raised up the elderly from abject poverty and kept them that way. They are in fact, now the only age group exempt from poverty. And while the government has put laws into place to support other programs, they are only as successful as those who run OUR government allow them to be. If the rich weren't so busy trying to get what they believe they and they alone are entitled to, the government (which is us) would not have to use our tax dollars in the very valuable safety-nets that exist. Greed tells people that without "economic freedom",, the rest are illusory. WHO has economic freedom? I sure don't. My husband still works and for the moment we have choices but in a few years those economic freedoms we have now will fade as will all the other so called freedoms. Do you know which countries are prospering in this WW downturn? The ones who thrive on socialistic programs. Their industries thrive, their citizens have little or no unemployment with huge benefits. And their health care has the best outcomes in the world---along with their education systems. WE can no longer claim to be #1 in the world and that is because we have forgotten that if even one of us is without "economic freedom", then none of us can thrive and succeed. Whether you believe it or not...whether you like it or not, we are all dependent on each other. And while I dream of a revolution that will put our "nobility" in it's place, I am smart enough to know that they will never let that happen! As a matter of fact the founders made sure to make it unConstitutional. The South tried it and found out that they could not make a legitimate case! No one in this country is any match for our military might---the nobility made sure of that too!

Economic Freedom? Sorry, doesn't seem to be in the Constitution but if he is talking about government giving big business it's head--I say look at the results. That's exactly what happened when Congress was run by Republicans then backed by a Republican president for almost 6 years. Government serves the purpose of "watchdog" on Corporation excesses, banking excesses and individual excesses. It's called making laws. Now if he's talking about all the interference in government by the Big Boys. Yeah, that needs to end and it needs to end soon because it's their interference in the decision making of Congress and the Supreme Court that is endangering every freedom we think we have. In the end, Law is supposed to protect freedom. As far as I can see Law only serves to protect those who think they are entitled to freedom....the rest of us can just start planning the next revolution!

As a humorist, I like PJ but his politics leave something to be desired. Without government "safety-nets", we who are slaves in gilded cages would see how much we have given up for security! It's become more and more obvious after the crimes committed on 9/11. We cannot live without the "fear-driven" society we have become so used to--after WWII it was the "Commie" scare and what happened to that? After spending years of "ducking and covering" as a kid and learning what one "demagog" (McCarthy) was able to accomplish by polishing that fear to a high patina--it is clear to me that we are unable to think for ourselves. We listen to the fear mongers and cower in our corner of the so-called "American dream" (something I'm sure an advertising agent came up with to sell us all manner of items that will assuage our biggest fear--death! And in the American dream we all die happy deaths!) You know, if Republicans want to quote someone they should be quoting Eisenhower who left office with a huge warning "Beware of the Military Industrial Complex". Why, doesn't it keep our economy humming? I suppose in some ways it did because our fears always push us toward "war" and thus Ben Franklin's great quote: "He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither" But, back to the programs PJ calls "entitlement" programs--people asking for a handout? Right, you all agree with that? Most of those people have lost their jobs through no fault of their own and need to have their taxes now (because WE are the government and everyone pays taxes) to help them to survive until Our Corporate Masters decide to bring their businesses, manufacturing and otherwise, BACK to this country! And what do we call the Corporate Welfare, tax breaks, deregulation and other handouts like government contracts that these clowns drag offshore while good and honest Americans cannot afford to put even bread on the table. I don't know what you call that but that is infact what the word "ENTITLEMENT" refers to: "to give a right or demand or expect; authorize or qualify as in HIS POSITION entitles him to it.,,,to give (a person) a TITLE designating rank, honor or TITLE." What PJ and many people call "entitlement" programs is a misuse of that word. A huge misuse of the word. Because what they don't want to see through the haze of the "America Dream" is that we are all becoming slaves. Those at the bottom of the food chain already understand they are entitled to nothing, not even after years of paying taxes while the rich (who ARE entitled) gobble down everything INCLUDING our tax dollars while paying little or nothing themselves--being entitled to places of honor because of their exorbitant wealth! A person given a title was usually wealthy and of so called "noble" birth....something people who immigrated here in the early years, were fleeing! The opportunities to make your own way and be non-dependent went the way of "no standing army". And the job creators, those entitled to what they have by their wealth alone--because the great industrial leaders are also a thing of the past--are waiting until the majority of Americans are all begging for help to offer them a pittance instead of a living wage for which all will be "eternally grateful". And it will be clear to everyone---too late I might add--that what we have been and will continue to be is "slaves in gilded cages"--coined by Jerry Spence who adds, "A slave in a gilded cage is no less a slave!" It is a shameful thing that we have allowed to happen--the criminals are behind every government office including presidents and supreme court judges. They change the laws to suit their purposes and then proclaim executive privilege or some other excuse why their crimes should be overlooked. There is no going back now, that I can see. And you all better hope the government "safety nets" are still in place when it happens to you and don't think it won't--our vain glorious Corporate Masters own this country lock, stock and barrel!

One sentence. But one that makes me laugh outloud---sometimes truth is funny. I think RBESRQ is probably closer but not all of us have experience with Sergeants! LOL

A really good example is airport security--if you don't feel like a criminal before you fly, they can certainly make you feel like one and appear to be one to your fellow travelers. If only Americans were a little more intelligent and a little less trusting of all bureaucracies, then we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. I've had my experiences there and with the justice system and until you do don't understand that "Innocent until proven guilty" is not how they look at you---you are and always will be in all their eyes: "Guilty until proven otherwise!"

Most truths can be distilled down to either a single word or a single sentence. He should have used a comma after felony!

Capitalism benefits the Capitalists---and they tell us it will all trickle down-- but that's true only if the people keep an eye on them--keep them well regulated and paying taxes so that they don't destroy us all. Capitalism breeds greed and greed destroys but usually not the Capitalists. As for socialism, it's been a part of our country for generations and Great Britain, France, Spain etc. Socialism did not bring down either the USSR or Korea--it was top down control, and I'd call that a form of fascism---and fascism defined by Mussolini is just another name for Corporatism. Every time the corporatists have unbridled control of a country and this is true of us as well, the country is ground to dust beneath their feet. They don't care a lick whether you or I succeed as long as they are rewarded. Our government failed us because it failed to regulate and tax those who worship at the feet of capitalism. Their greed caused this terrible downturn (along with the elected representatives who gave them what they wanted in exchange for big bank accounts). And I never heard anything so ridiculous: "fascist/socialist/bankers"....yes blame the /corporatist/capitalists/banker/fascists--they will take control of your lives and tell you that YOU are the criminals for over-extending yourselves--after they led you down the garden path to "the American Dream"!

You know, I'm not too old to remember when what Rand said was true. It was true for my parent's generation and while such success was still possible in my youth, it rapidly became less and less so as greed once again reared it's ugly head. Several times in our history it has done so and it makes life nearly unbearable for those who don't hold the money because those who do pull all the strings and jobs disappear, opportunities for small business to create jobs disappear as 2% of Americans hold 98% of the wealth and shoot themselves in the foot by holding on to their exorbitant profits. This is the system of the kings and queens which our forbearers tried to flee. And they were successful until the Corporations and the Bankers took control of every part of their lives--success being counted as Rand puts it: "They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance -- and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way." Until they no longer deign to be creators or to reach down to their slaves with beneficence. When people in this country talk about "entitlement programs" they are referring to government programs that help people get to their feet and stay there. These so-call "entitlement programs" are not about entitlement at all. Entitlement is a word that speaks of the "right" of those with "titles" to have everything because they own everything--they believe they are entitled by birth and by their station to give or withhold all which they believe is rightfully theirs. Our forbearers only traded one brand of "nobility" for another and we have been under their thumbs ever since. Have we made progress, sure but only what they allowed. Science and technology--only what they have allowed. We are not starved by them because they understand that slaves work better if they have a little food and a roof over their heads. You can try to deny this truth but the reality has nothing to do with "the American dream" they sold us to keep us in line. I agree with George Carlin, "They call it the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it!" And as for socialism, I have come to believe it is the only government that is TRULY Of the people, By the people and FOR the people---so stay asleep if you want to believe the other!

Yes, the sad fact is that while the rest of us are being taxed to death, the wealthy--the so-call business moguls aren't even paying their fair share. Which is why the rest of us are paying the lion's share! The Dems only want the wealthy to start paying their fair share---our tax cuts, you know the rest of us earning less than $250,000 a year will be retained. And please don't tell me that these billionaires need low taxes so they can create jobs---WHAT have they been doing for the last ten years with the Bush tax cuts squarely in place. I'll tell you if you haven't been watching the news, shipping jobs off shore so they pay way less in wages and benefits, or cutting peoples' hours so they don't have to pay benefits and keeping the wages low to protect their bottom line. Popeye made the point very well. Out here in Nebraska, where Warren Buffett, one of the richest men in the world lives, you might find yourself surprised to hear his views on taxation in this country--one problem he addressed is that his secretary actually pays more in taxes than he does and that is not just---but then as he added, we are a wealthy nation but not necessarily a just one! If under the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, this country was bleeding jobs at nearly 750,000 per month at it's height, one has to reflect on what extending those tax cuts will do to the rest of us as we sink even deeper into the morass created by the corporatocracy which lobbies to keep it's billions!

Mike, I disagree with your view that this is about "charity". But if you want to attribute charity to a religious activity than I can tell you that very few people in this country who find themselves in extremes would find help from religious charity. Yes, they have their hero's and they have their organizations but with 50,000,000 out of work and some of them for several years--there is charity that can help them. However, Constitutionally speaking, the preamble has this to say: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence and promote the GENERAL WELFARE,,,,etc" Circumstance does not always allow the average citizen the rights guaranteed by our Constitution. Most people in this country today, if they are fortunate enough to have a job are working poor--most work two sometimes even three jobs which still do not put them over the poverty line. Most Americans would rather work than be on Welfare and that's a fact. But Welfare is something that many could not live without--something that is LESS about charity and more about providing for the general welfare. The great recession caused by Republican neglect of the majority in favor of the very wealthy, will continue unless taxation returns to what is fair for those earn billions while many in this country are jobless, homeless, hungry and in poor health--through no fault of their own. Even Jesus said that the poor would always be with us--those "poor" should be helped by religious charity but having been a part of the "great" religion for most of my life, I rarely saw that principle applied by its members!

By the way, did anyone notice the date of that quote---another time of the great robber barons who plotted an (unsuccessful) overthrow of the government under FDR--one of their own who did realize the great opportunities which lie even in a country that levies taxes especially on the rich!

All very interesting replies none of which accounts for the fact that we live in a society where all our needs are met through the use of tax dollars. When some (the majority) are the only ones paying the taxes that are used for the "general welfare" of all then there is no point in discussing the "dividing of wealth". We now live in a society where the majority are slowly being undercut by the greed of the wealthy who are like the great robber barons of our early history. They care nothing for those who make their businesses prosper by working in their companies and buying their products. They are conducting more business offshore, making profit their god while they slowly deplete Americans who made their profits in the first place. What is the point of this talk of "redistribution of wealth" when there is not a person among us that does not benefit from being taxed---education, public welfare, protection of public lands, infrastructure, police and fire protection, military and on. Do you want the fire department to come to your house and demand payment before they put out the fire, or the police to do the same? That's what we should expect from a government without taxation. And the great amount of talk now about the deficit---we just went through at least 10 years where the robber barons were given their heads, no regulations, little or no taxes, no inheritance tax (this being the last year before we go back to taxes being levied against amounts over 3.5 million for individuals and 7.5 for couples--that's right OVER those amounts) but listen how the very rich scream about paying---threaten that they will not be able to reinvest. So tell me, what have they been doing for the last 10 years while the laws favored them to the extreme? Did they reinvest? Did they bring the jobs back that they shipped overseas? Did they do anything but stick their billions in their own accounts some here but as many if not more offshore as well. If they don't like living in the US of A, then perhaps they should take themselves somewhere else as well--somewhere they can take everything at the expense of everyone else! Then maybe we'll get some jobs from some real entrepreneurs who realize what great opportunities lie even in a country that levies taxes mostly in their favor!

Really? I wonder how he would have felt if someone had put a gun to his head? We'll never know...will we?

If I understand him correctly, it may be the few times I agree with him. Marijuana, helps a lot of people with medical problems and if it were available in my state I would use it for at least two conditions. However, I am not opposed to people using it recreationaly but it should be legalized and taxed like cigarettes and alcohol--neither of which are helpful to anyone. But having vilified marijuana as the "gateway drug" has produced the arrests and jail sentences--continuing to grow since 1995. Cracking down on alcohol abusers would serve this country far better. I'm not ancient but in all my years I have never heard of people being killed by someone on marijuana. However, those abusing alcohol and driving are responsible for thousands of deaths every year--unfortunately most of the abusers survive to drink and drive again. I was in court for a friend a few years ago and one of the cases that came up was a guy who continued to abuse alcohol and drive despite the fact that his license had been pulled at least 5 times. There should be a 3 strikes you're out law in every state for drunks who endanger other people's lives. If they don't get help and are found to be driving without a license, then they should be jailed. Period.

What she's saying makes sense but she's got it backward....the "Corporation" has been working hard to achieve all of these things way before Engels and Marx penned words to paper. Communism is the boogey-man that has been used in this country by the Corporatocracy to take our eyes off the ball! Now, they have the added "evil of terrorist killers" to make sure we don't look behind the curtain and see that all of these things are the plotting of their CEO's and the Banker's who long ago started "buying" OUR representatives---who, by the way, care not one wit whether we vote because they know who is behind the curtain and whose money pays for their campaign successes! Communism--bah, humbug! Socialism has been a god send in a country where the Corporatocracy is the "wizard" calling all the shots and handing us this crap called the "American dream"----about which the late George Carlin declared: "They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it!"

It is exactly what happened here as war crime after war crime was committed by our leaders and Americans are making the same mistake...wasting valuable time and effort puzzling over it, insisting it is not, cannot possibly be, what it seems."

Mike, my only hope is that I can wake up a few people before I die. Sounds like I expect to soon but I'm not getting any younger and the young people are so disconnected from this whole thing.....although my sons seem to have come to a clear understanding of what is happening in and to the country. I guess they are my last hope, that and that they are not alone. But then the patriots who formed this country were not that young and they would have been hanged as traitors if it had all gone another way. I am not afraid, just not sure how much good one old woman in Nebraska can do. I'm enjoying the discussion...maybe that is what it will take. Discussing the facts and choosing civil disobedience over expediency and comfort.

Mike, what makes you think we can do anything short of insurrection to turn our country around now. Every law and executive order Bush signed made it clear that his statement about the Constitution was more than just words. It IS just a piece of paper to him and to thousands of others but now, with the nails half way into the coffin with the USA Patriot Act (Bushit!--(no patriots involved)--no one ever questions how they came up with so many pages of BS so quickly after 9/11? And how about the proposal submitted by the Pentagon for deploying troops on our streets? (Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 specifically outlaws the military acting like cops on our on soil!) An executive order put through by Bush changed the 1807 Insurrection Act, giving himself (or any president I guess) greater powers in the event of something he or another would label as "insurrection" (the Constitution allows habeas corpus to be suspended during such an occurrence). Early in 2006 Homeland Security awarded 385 million to KBR (subsidiary of Cheney's old company, Halliburton) to get going on "temporary detention and processing facilities" in care there was "an emergency influx of immigrants (what?) or to support the rapid development of new programs" with a natural disaster--think Katrina. Also in 2006 the Military Commissions Act passed through Congress just before the midterm elections. It went so far as to permit the INDEFINITE imprisonment of anybody who happened to give money to a charity on the Terror Watch List, or EVEN someone who spoke out against these kinds of policies. Did you know that more than 775,000 "terror suspects are already on the National counter terrorism Center's list? And that Corporations have further been granted protection from animal rights activists because those who engage in sit-ins, civil disobedience, trespass or any other crime in the name of animal rights will be included on "terrorists" list. I know people on the "list" and they are hassled every time they fly even though they have done nothing more than fly out of the country on numerous occasions to visit relatives. These so-called laws designed to protect us sound more like they will be used to imprison any and all who make the mistake of questioning their Constitutionality! And why are you worried about "illegal immigrants" in a country made up of illegal immigrants who stole this county away from the native peoples? All of a sudden we're worried about people coming across our southern border? What about our northern border? Once again this is all about our Corporate Masters---the truth is that our government has been involved with the illegal drug business for a very long time. The sudden interest in illegals takes our eyes off the activities they don't want us to know about---using drug money to fund secret projects. Sounds like a conspiracy theory, doesn't it? Take the word "theory" away and you will have the truth about the so call "illegal drug" trade. When the government calls something a Conspiracy Theory--the whole purpose is to keep us from knowing that the conspiracy lies with their actions and not ours! "Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppression, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate systematic plan of reducing a people to slavery." Thomas Jefferson (1774)

FDR fought the corporate fascists of his day---including Jr's grandpa. He was called a traitor to his class because he tried to give the rest back, a small portion of what had been stolen from them and nearly paid with his life. No one knows the greatest American hero because he failed to do what the Corporatists hoped which was to remove FDR and put a military junta in his place. Smedly Butler was a decorated hero of the WWI, but what gave the Corporatists the idea that he would do what they wanted, I will never understand. He played along with them until he had what he thought would be enough evidence to convince Congress but Congress was reluctant to go after the Captains of Industry even then so it became just another one of those "silly" conspiracy theories. Courts can be bought and paid for too. Like that idiot in Louisiana who refuses to recuse himself even though it is now common knowledge that he owns stock in BP and other oil Titans. The price is high...pay it (or pay with your life--it would seem) so they get paid and end up paying what ever the Corporations demand of them in return. We used to live in CT and I still held out hope then that there was something to salvage. Something that could be salvaged but needless to say, over the years, I have learned how deeply damaged our "glorious" system really has become and I see nothing to hope for---now or in the future. So many seem so worried about the economic future of their children and grandchildren---but none seem to understand that the people who claim they have the answers are really the ones who caused the problem in the first place and they did it ON PURPOSE! I heard this a few years ago and it seems to make more sense than anything to me now: "Death smiles at us all and what can we do but smile back?"

Mike, Neither, just stating the facts of life!:^)

Why are we even having this discussion based on a quote by a man who was as much a part of the problem as any one else...maybe more so considering his connections and the fact that he was in Congress for 18 years and 8 of those years were part of the 12 that Republicans dominated. AND he was the House Majority Leader for those 8 years. We can't trust anyone who is elected to office because they are openly controlled by the Corporatocracy and refuse to recognize any of the crimes they have all committed against the Constitution which they swore to protect and defend. It's appalling how we take sides against each other when the real problems lie in how to change the system which is no longer what most people think it was or is. They meet secretly with their real bosses and decide how to best keep us at each others throats so we won't come after theirs. They have attempted to assassinate one president (and failed) while the success of the other took all eyes off of them and put them squarely on some Russian or Cuban conspiracy which everyone accepts while laughing at the idea that the real conspiracy was what our government did. How many even know about the attempt on FDR? How many even know Kennedy was trying to eliminate the FED and our involvement in Vietnam? Two HUGE reasons for the wealthy to eliminate him from the equation that allows them to control all of this country with or without our knowledge! Armey is using double speak, as they all do to make us think he's really on our side...the other side is laughing their heads off because they know most will fall for his bunk--- hook, line and sinker! And what are we doing? Talking about whether he's right or not. We all know he's not so lets stop discussing the value of this quote which remains as destructive now as it did when he was openly a part of the conspiracy to destroy any chance any of us had to seek and find employment and not end up on some dole because the "big boys" were taking all their jobs and going somewhere they could get real slave labor while they wait for us to accept our fate!

Mike, I'll be around. I mean where can I go--I'm chained to my desk!

One last comment about slavery or servitude---there's an old song about miners who live and work at the mine. They get paid by the mining company and then pay it all back to them in the company store--which is the only thing they can do.. That's us, as Gerry Spence would say we are slaves in a guilded cage but that doesn't make us any less their slaves--so we dream on.

Mike, oh, I finally see....you hate the whole mess as much as I do. Didn't mean to accuse you of anything but I only heard you attacking one side of the equation. Since it's clear that you understand that neither party has our best interest at heart, that both do what is expedient for our Corporate Masters while using phrases that they think will placate us, then we really are on the same page. By the way, the Congress was Republican from 1994 to 2006---that is 12 years and while they had a Republican president (unless you count the other guy) for only 6 of those years, it's clear that they brought us with his help to the brink of economic destruction. Why? Because they don't work for us, obviously! But ignoring what was done during those years does make it possible to ignore any good being done by the current Congress and president. Are they really doing good? Perhaps. But looking at it honestly, they have cobbled things together again and the Recovery Act is working (maybe you haven't seen it but I have on our short summer travels). I don't trust any politicians but what I have seen in my lifetime makes me inclined to trust Dems over Repugs---that is until now. Now, like all the other myths that I have had to give up over the course of my life---I must give up the Myth of America. I have always believed that the system works if we get the right people to represent us---not true, actually none of it is true. The financial illegal acts done in every generation are just the tip of the iceberg---what we don't see, what they don't want us to see is just under the surface and I've been forced to put my head under the oil slick to face the truth. Illegal acts are the hallmark of the American way---it's how we get things done and it's not going to stop any time soon...the whole Bush administration should be prosecuted for war crimes but they won't because Congress was in collusion with them. Ford pardoned Nixon for obvious crimes and then Bush daddy pardoned himself and the whole Iran-Contra crowd. On and on all spurred on by the need for power and incessant greed. Anyway, it's been interesting talking with you....two side of the same coin I guess. I've always voted since I could vote but I'm no longer interesting in playing THEIR game. It's not my country, it's not our country--so why pretend that it works. Fascism or Communism or Corporatism--call it anything you like but it's all uniquely part of of the undercurrent called the American dream---and "you have to be asleep to believe it!" Thanks for the discussion.