Such is the condition of nearly every single American - they would rather be in chains than free, its safer... Do you all really know what it is to be free or are you just faux free... We have the worst terrorist state in the world and you post comments like this. This is further proof that America will undoubtedly implode - have a wonderful day. Under yours nose at at night they continued the Patriot Act (Police State Act). Mike the thread continues. Mike, Waffler, and Archer you are conspicuous by your absence

The first part was good until you got to Atheism -- this is obviously a subject you need more education about. Atheists do not believe in God -- this is incorrect as by definition there is no need to elaborate. The literal meaning of Atheist means you don't believe in God without God, 'a' equals without and 'theos' equals Gods. So, it is redundant to say Atheists don't believe in God. To say Atheists are religious is absurd and using the color Black analogy is buffoonery. How do you classify Atheism as a religion? There are many classifications for Christianity. The disbelief of a God is not grounds to contradict "Atheism is a Religion" as many beliefs like Jainism, Buddhism, Taoism, and many others are classified as religions as the Christian criteria for being religious is also met by these other beliefs systems. This following paragraph is from a friend when I asked him to comment on the argument: "The argument that atheism is a religion is silly on its face. There is no dogma; there are no artifices, no high priests, no liturgy, no ritual, no offer of a special treatment at sometime in the future in exchange for practices performed today, no need for sacrifices or offerings, no large special class of individuals whose livelihood is supported by the lay people to explain the mysteries to them- the list goes on and on. Belief or lack of belief in any particular myth does not constitute a religion. To say that it does is the same tactic used by Creation Scientists, to try to co-opt the word "science" to make it meaningless, and just another synonym for faith. Faith, on the other hand, is belief in the unbelievable. Amongst the religious, of any denomination or creed, the greater the belief in the unbelievable, the greater the stature of the individual, because the greater the faith." Atheists are not bound by the common ideology that religious beliefs systems practice. Purely speaking and from many English lit professors the word Atheism needs no further explanation. The word itself defines its position, it needs no qualifier. I agree secular law has nothing to do with Atheism or Christianity. All is encompassed within Natural Law as we are all its subjects regardless of our beliefs. A secular government includes any belief system; the difference being is that those belief systems are outside the administration of a secular state. Secularism is not a religion as I have explained with regard to atheism, it follows the same analogy; secularism does not have the same tenets, or need for faith, that are part of a religious ideology. I have no idea what you mean by the Gay movement the only gay movement I am aware of is their need for equal rights. Is there another movement that you can enlighten me about? It is precisely the Gay agenda that all should be free and have the same rights without the need to categorize groups into religious and non-religious. I admire your position on your own religious agenda - if there are religious orders within your statist theocracy■s domain that do recognize Gay marriage then that is there right as much as it is yours and your particular religious order not to do so. Yes, the history of Common and Civil Law is a fascinating subject.

It's the "Bureaus" that have taken over the administration (indirectly) they are now the power houses robing the people of not just their rights but also their livelihood.

Because the sea and air are the last vestiges of universal rights - lets keep it that way. Well done Lizzy - considering you ruled the waves, not bad.

Waffler, you are the illegal; we took the land from those who we now call illegal - where are your morals?

Yes, we are indeed allowing freedom to slip away for a little security for BF said we deserve neither.

How can the free world, and that's arguable, ever be worthy of its past

We have no Liberty as there is no Virtue in having our boys and girls killed for the sake of corporate America - to name just one of many reasons. Mike the threads continued

Mike, First, you must understand what an Atheist is they are just a-theist. I’m sorry but civil unions regarding marriage, which are not a religious ordinance, have been performed for many years. I’m also not bias towards Christianity, the whole point of Atheism and Secularism is that we are not opposed to anyone choosing what ever religion they wish to worship. Please understand that Atheism is only disbelief in ANY religion. It’s not anti-Christian or anti any belief system; I would never presume my beliefs over that of others, therefore Atheist’s are NOT anti-religion and, as far as they are concerned its a non sequitur. Using the word anti provides an active response (that you oppose), which we do not rhetorically or physically react too. Yes, we are redefining words, words that have been bastardized, co-opt, and hijacked to fit a religious or cult’s agenda. Out of interest, please tell me the religion that practices one woman and multiple men and the other inherent responsibilities mentioned. In Mormonism they have multiple wives though the government outlawed this in 1895 though it is still practiced today and the government turns a blind eye to it. How about turning a blind eye and allow Gays to marry – many Christian’s and Jews have been enlightened and do allow marriage of “same sex” couples in their churches. Yes, you hit the nail on the head when you mention “beyond the purview of representative government” it is exactly this that a secular movement disagrees with. Why do you limit your understanding of equality to only that which fits your religious agenda? That, my dear friend, is not kosher. We are trying to change the law for all to have equality and the church keeps on actively and aggressively trying to stop that by funding all Anti-Gay marriage proposals with millions of dollars – what are Christians scared of? It should be the lawful subject of a personal relationship, to think otherwise is bigotry and prejudice. By the way a secular government or come to that, any government whether it be secular, fascist, democratic, or theocratic, makes their own laws that is NO SUCH THING as a law that can supersede any of those governments if they so wish. Just look what happened to Thomas Becket who was killed by Catholics/Christian and later made a Saint. Actually, again, you hit the nail on the head. When will Christian’s see the light and natural law (not the Thomas Aquinas type I mean real Natural Law not the Natural Law Christians or Muslims or Jews wish to define). Natural law is totally without thought and without objectives; it is absolute beyond human intervention either religious or governmental. Natural law only answers to one other law and that is Universal law. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes, that is Universal Law. The path to discovery is hindered by religion and any other from of egocentric relationship. Joy in Liberty will only be achieved when man’s dominance over the life of others is eliminated. The substance of JOY can only come about by TOTAL disassociation with the material world – until we throw off the yoke of theocratic, dictatorial governments, and religious ordinances we will never experience the joy of liberty and life and the Universal principle. In the actual natural world, of man-made laws, homosexuality is common in most species. Therefore, it is occurring naturally even as we speak. One chooses religion not your sexuality. You obtain your sexual preference when you are born. Until you agree with this any further conversation is irrelevant. Though, we can still discuss common law.

"Hoped" be the operative verb. Oh, yes, lets get to Jamestown and take the Indians land - this country was founded on genocide and we have the nerve to talk about illegal aliens - what crap.

I don't think GW would say this today as it is not true. Clarence Thomas is and his four friends have just turned the clock back a hundred years - what fools they are. There should be term limits for the Supreme Court, and there decision should be ratified by the senate (like they are in the UK) not the other way round.

Wow! yes, government and government agencies definitely needs to be held in check - also corporate monopolies. And, as Archer quite rightly pointed out GW should know. Mike, I continued the thread...

Mike, I didn't quite understand the (or more) thought. Marriage has nothing to do with religious sacraments - if Christianity wishes to use the word marriage as part of their autonomous sacrament and associate the word marriage with divine intervention and beliefs that's OK. It's when religious groups steal words that are common to all peoples that I have a problem. If Christians and other religious groups wish to use the word marriage as part of their divine union they can but all should be allowed to use the same word in their union too. Marriage is not the property of religion, marriage is a word used to identify the relationship between either individuals, groups, etc. Why do religious group think they own the word marriage? Marriage is also used for any close intimate association or agreements between entities. You may not believe in the use of the word marriage for any other reason than one of Christian sacrament - while we are on that subject tell me where in the bible is the word marriage used expressly to marry only a man and a women. Well, marriage should be lawful in a secular government and are more like to be so if there is a separation of church and state. The law and rights provided to those who either marry in a church, or registry office, should be for all people if they so wish. Many Gay marriages are sanctified by religious groups outside the official dictum's of their hierarchy. If there are Gays who are Christian they should be given the same rights as the marriage between a man and a women. It's time for society to rid itself of dogma and prejudice and live freely regardless of sexual orientation. Mike, yes, "Life is indeed an expression of liberty. Unrighteous theocracies and other tyrannical governments, with their patrons negate liberty and freedom". Good people exist in all facets of life and NO ONE has rights over another because they believe they are morally correct. What is morally correct is in the hearts of people and not written in the law books - if only we disobeyed what was told to us as a moral objective but in our hearts we knew otherwise - wars may stop today.

Mike, I agree, but everyone is an individual and very different; what makes us the same is our indoctrination towards any subject you wish to choose - we lose our individuality to social and political ideology that wishes you to conform to its belief system. Putting your research to the test! well, that's a tall order but, I think I know what you mean. By the way, the homophobes and religious right won re Prop 8 so I'm not sure where you are coming from by saying you were verbally abuse. Look at the terrible abuse gays suffers from placards that read "God hates fags" (the list is long re; disgusting and hate rhetoric towards gays). If gays gave you abuse over your religious beliefs re; the sanctity of marriage you can understand as Americans are the last to live by any such covenant (what hypocrisy). I'm curious as to why you were abused and physically accosted over prop 8, please elaborate as you seem to have the belief that gays also have the right to marry. The point of a secular government is precisely the opposite to your statement above. Here I'm very confuse because you are now saying that a secular government is trying to have a monopoly over the religious sacrament marriage - what balderdash. A secular government would be the opposite as they would recognize your right for ANY religious belief - are you confusing a secular government with communism? A secularism believes that government should exist separately from religion.Why do you thing our founding farther wanted a separation between church and state. The audacity of religion to dictate the rights of individuals and the administration of government is beyond me. When religion rears its staff and dictates how society should operate we become fundamentalists like many Muslim countries; this creates fear, and stifles imagination and creativity (just to name a few). Many Christian actual support secularism because its provides freedom from persecution - in others words, equality for all. Life is indeed a negation of Liberty as life (the government under which you exist) always dictates what and how your Liberty should be defined. True Liberty is not possible in a world that is confined to the dictates of any particular regime. Life is as we exist in it and not some ideological belief that is never experienced. Our rhetoric with regards to natural law and universal law is in most case highly misrepresented as it is not reflective of Life and our daily activities - it is more reflective of what we think as apposed to how we live. If you wish to discuss materialism just take a look at the Vatican and how many religions wants their tithing. Give me St.Francis any day - now he was a true and compassionate individual. Sorry for the rant...

Oops! that's "White House"

Mike, you sound like a good fellow and responsible. But your life as above has me betwixt because the norm in America is that the fascist (soft) government is far more religiously motivated than otherwise. When the White Starts of the day with a daily prayer I think that says it all. When we use :In God we Trust" nearly at every official function I would think you are on the right side of the fence - its people like me that are badgered by society for my beliefs. I'm interested to know why as a child you were thought of as either radical or different to main line society. I know Mormons, Presbyterians, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, all of which are good people and allow me my life as an Atheist - some say "then you don't believe in anything" well, that couldn't be further from the truth - I believe in life, humanity, and individual rights to exist equally regardless of faith, creed, race, gender, and philosophy. It is us in our daily actions that represent heaven and hell not some nefarious myth that has never been proved - my faith is in the human race that one day we will all live in peace and throw ego out of the window.

For which there are very, very, few - we will never have freedom from bureaucracy and therefore no Liberty

What is Liberty if you have no food, no home, no hope, but Liberty - Life is the negation of Liberty

No comment! Neither God or the Devil exist if they did it would be an oxymoron

Indeed but it must be collective

Liberty exists in the eye of the beholder.

Freedom is in the eye of the beholder

I love the thought - perhaps in another 1000 years

If they were held sacred then there would be no wars but alas they not so the vicious cycle continues

This is so apropos of today's masses who are slave to the media and corporate America. Their Freedom is held on their shirt sleeves and excuses for war.