The purpose of school is to create worlds of meaning for students who will latch on and go for it. Some will and some will not. We do not know ahead of time who will and who will not. Thus we should give all an opportunity and then pray.

We should be careful at judging shop talk. If you would hear the conversation of medics in your operating room ala MASH you will not be very impressed with professionalism. It is like airing dirty laundry that was not meant to be seen.

I saw a teacher accept a Golden Apple Award in Chicago. His words on acceptance gave me the best description of what education should be. He said his job was to create worlds of meaning for children. Give them something to latch on to and go for. Some latch on some don't.

Ok Mike I'll take you on. Jesus took on the "God fearing" nation of his time also. Jesus or the Bibel tell us never to tire of doing good, but I agree we should beware of intrusion. As for "Under God" I feel that it was a good intentioned intrusion enacted by Congress unconstitutionally due to it being "an establishment of religion". I fully accept unfashionable gifts as an act of love. Good intentions are an after the fact phenomenon. If the gift or act were successful we never mention the intention. This quotes main thrust however is intrusion. The Congresses intrusion in the Rio Grande is well intended. If it is successul we will not question the "good intention" part only if it is unsuccessful. I admire the courage of some people to do "good intentioned" things even if they go wrong, even in Mr. Bushes Iraq mismanaged fiasco.

I don't get your drift Warren. I agree with Teresa. Moi, I am not involved in the school although many here say they would like me to be a sub. Since I am not involved I have no business attacking the system and being a bag of wind. It would be interesting Warren to know what is the involvement of commentators such as yourself. I am glad you are on board Teresa you sound like a voice of reason and not just talk but action.

Good quote apropos the FENCE. Spent three months this winter in the Rio Grande valley from Brownsville to Laredo. People there don't like the "good intentioned" Feds and their immigration fence. Sat in on hearings in the Fedral Court House concerning the issue where folks were complaining about the Feds intrusion. I say in this regard the good intention is better than no intention at all.

What would happen Ken if we eliminated compulsory education and left these people to their own devices?

Emerson was/is great. He said the only reason the prophets and other men are famous is because they wrote things down. We can have just as great thoughts as they. Raldo would have got along great with Paul Simon "When I think back to all that crap I learned in High School, its a wonder I can think at all." Seriously though some schools teach occupational and technical things that are very job related. Not all kids take words and math and college prep.

Ah! but to know when you are being intrusive that is the question. How many BS Christmas ties have I gotten and then the loving giver keeps asking me, "When are you going to wear it."

Cute! What is missing is mention of the amazing thing that happens when intelligence and education reside in the same indidividual. In order to make that cream come to the top we have to do a lot of formal education. Dont' be upset because most of the cream does not come to the top, and yes too much settles to the bottom due to lack of motivation.

Archer I did not say the schools were good or bad but just said that they are OURS and not "the governments".

Spent Memorial Day in a discussion with a young semi-washed up 5/6th grade teacher. She says "no child left behind" has made things extremely difficult. And contrary to many posts on this site she says the problem is the parents and the lack of good parental influence. She worked in inner city situations. So it ain't the teacher it is the parents or at least some of the parents who are at fault.

The "undegraded non-rabble" present themselves to private shools or to Mommy and Daddy. They dress in uniforms and are hammered into some type of dogmatic goose-stepping robots for the sake of narrowness and in order to come out thinking just like Mommy and Daddy and therefore not to have any thoughts of their own. Be carefull that like many you do not fall for vogueism. That is the mouthing of whatever current language construction is popular regardless of whether it is truty or not. "Government school" is an erroneous construction that is in vogue or fashionable with certain types of people. Communities across America run schools for any and all residents to partake of if they wish. The residents have obtions to do otherwise as long as they educate their children. Community is "us" not the government. Beware of vogueisms.

That God we do not have Government schooling in America. I know our Mayor and some of the county politicians and all here. They don't run our schools. Our school here that we hold open to any resident is run by us. We elect our school board and supervise the thing through our involvement. Can anyone tell me where a Government School exists in America for the education of children.

I agree that the children are not dumb. I think Mr. Gatto is off base whoever said children are dumb. They are unknowledeable and folks have been teaching them them since time immemorial. "Official" schooling as he calls it is done in all cultures in order to bring people "up to speed". This guy is a Top Teacher so he obviously believes in teaching and in the "system". Be careful how you read these guys "shop talk".

Julz, it is generally assumed that the teacher is specially trained in his or her subject matter. To have one parent out of maybe 200 dictating to a teacher is generally a problem. On the other given the outside chance that a parent knows what they are talking about the teacher should listen. As to parents having a "legal" right to dictate, I agree that is not a good idea. It is sad to see all of my Liberty-Tree friends supporting DICTATORSHIP. It shows how really fragile liberty may be in this country. Let us stay vigilant!

At risk of being naive I take the risk of thinking similar to the Golden Rule. I expect people to treat me the way I would treat them (nice of course) and I also risk thinking that people, (school teachers and administrators) will generally think about teaching and kids the same way I do. This risk taking has generally proved to work out well, and I have not been disappointed to many times. I may not be paranoid like y'all but I can still keep a sharp eye. Robert is right if you want to look for factory training methods check out big business.

What kind of education system would we have public or private if the unlearned is telling or dictating to the learned on any given subject what to or not to teach or how to teach it? Now if the teaching or method is egregious enough there are recourses in union with other parents. Any time someone steps in front of a group of others there will be someone ready to knock them down or off of their pedestal. A teacher with say 20 kids per class hour and say 5 classes a day will have 200 would be, could be parental dictators, if it were not for John Swett's 1860 dictum above. If any one parent could so dictate they would then in effect be dictating not just to the teaching of their child but to the entire classroom. Talk about TOTALITARIANISM!

Yes children are special and they are the future and anyone coming in contact with them should consider it mandatory to treat them with truthfulness and all of those other values that sacredness entails. The assigned teacher should know that they are standing in place of the parent who has the responsibility but not the skills to fulfill the task. Hostages for a few hours, as we all know as we wait for the school bell, who return each day to their parents. Mike, Mann died in 1859 their is a Private School in New York named after him. In any sensitive reading of this sentence anyone should know he was speaking of the teachers responsibility to the parent and child.

A man simply states a truth and knee jerkers have a field day. You are lousy readers and can't even see what he is saying. First of all he said "in a sense". The "various demands of life" is nothing more than Adam Smiths "invisible hand of the free market"' Most people have some knowledge of how the "market" says we need more teachers more nurses etc.or more skilled craftsmen of this type or another, in the '50s of course it was more rocket scientists. We see adds every day exhorting people to take up this career or that and when kids are young we always ask them "what do you want to be when you grow up". They are already having thoughts and making decisions about themselves and the market place and how will they market themselves. You all who see socialists behind every curtain then complain about how the rest of the world educates their kids better and takes our jobs.

Would be nice to see some of the kids from the polygamists and the Branch Davidians (remember them) and all of these other drop out of society home schoolers meet some real people and get a real life.

Thank God for average Americans (of course there always will be an average, but nothing wrong with raising the level a little) and thank God that we do not over-educate our children. The proper role of teachers and parents in a free society is to give children awareness and opportunities and watch the individual blossom. Force feeding knowledge for regurditation and Grades is not what true education is about. We do not need a population of 100% college graduates etcetera. There is a place for everyone in this society so let each one develop to his best potential and desire. And the right wingers think that the state is controlling and pushy! Ha!Ha!

If this statement is at all true of teachers relationships with students it is true of all of our relationships with young people. Of course young people form their opinions and views from the adults they meet. Granted that teachers are in a greater position of influence but I would suggest that persons of all ages are constantly looking for prophets. Ever watch religious TV.

A smart and honest man knows where his bread is buttered. For insight into what a good job he and his teachers are doing I refer you to this weeks Newsweek article on the 1300 best high schools in America.

Jim both lucent and lucid are adjectives from the same route. I will agree with you that lucid would be the more normal construction. I chose lucent because it felt more exotic and creative, something not usually found in private schools. Hell would you be creative if the teacher was ready to hit you with a ruler. Ken what I was trying to say is that these guys wrote more like science fiction writers and they had cause to write against the rising dictatorship over the minds of men that was occurring in Russia and Germany. But as I tried to point out Lenin, Stalin and Hiler, and Mussolini are dead. The educational system is composed of hundreds of thousands of people, free people like you and I. Whence does this paranoia about "the state" come from. I suggest that literature has a life of its own, and these famous writers have created a fictive literature that is giving you right wing good old boys a feeding frenzy that has no basis in real facts about the educatinal system in these United States.