A good description of undemocratic modern corporations but not of democratic governments who are always throwing the bums out.

Last night Mr. Obama said "We are one people." This tendency for people or peoples to be together, united is a universal one. Thus the term "United Nations" just like "United States" is not chosen lightly. To infer that educational philosophy or curriculum stemming from any community (local, state or province, nation or world community) is inherently evil or bad shows a lack of depth on the part of Senator Jenner. A correct reading and understanding of the core beliefs of the American nation and its constitution should give no one fear of its possible subversion by others but on the contrary "the others" will be changed by it.

Why these famous writers are not more lucent and understandable is a mystery to me. In their use of terms like "state" and "totalitarian" they miss something it seems to me. What is the "state"? Have you ever seen one? How can something be "totalitarian" when human beings only live for 100 years? Do you see my drift, society, "states" are drifting evolving concepts. The "state" like the community is simply the consensus of opinion of its constitutents in a democracy or of whoever can grasp the reins of power until they die. The community or ruler can build up a body of policy and law that appears to have a life of its own but this policy and law can be changed, if not always easily. In any event to speak of "the state" or of a "totalitarian" as if they are all powerful and never ending is absurd. What these famous writers and thinkers fail to say is that thought and practice in the public market place and in education tend or trend towards the normative, This tendency towards "normal" is not intentionally evil or something that is planned or foisted on us. Individuals are free to do other than "normal" and to express views that are other than "normal" and will thereby actually influence what normal is. But to always imply that there is someone out there dictating all of this stuff is an error. The "state" or society like God will go on and on even though individuals will not. Now, that "the state" intends to mould all people to be just alike I deny, that sitting in any classroom at any age and listening to a single speaker and reading out of a common book tends to make the listeners united in their view of the subject discussed (by this speaker and this book) and thus mould them in relation to the subject I agree. That they may leave the classroom and seek other views I also agree. My experience in public school was that students coming from a wide spectrum of homes, cultural, ethnic, and religious backgrounds did not all agree on everything. I would suggest that a school started by a few parents or controlled by a small organization such as a church is much more narrow in its focus and totalitarian in its methods than the broad expansive entity we call society or "the state".

Look up the pruposes of the Jesuits to get into higher education. Not much different that this me thinks.

I really think it is tongue-in-cheek Jim. But the wealthy are always looking for ways to make money from the little people, or illegal immigrants. As we all know the rich get their money form the little people. Who the hell else buys all the consumer goods that these guys dump on society in order to enhance their personal fortunes and profits.

Jim here is som financing data you might find useful. In 2000-2001 the Illinois public school system reports tht 52% of the funds came from Local Gov, 37% State, and 10% Feds. The total amount was $17 billion.

Private schools are dogmatic putting little children into uniforms, maybe not quite as dogmatic as home schooling which also suffers from the emotional baggage of the parent-teacher/child-student relationship. I have read Jim that Japaneese students achieve much better academic scores than do their American counterparts but the pressures of their regimented no nonsense system puts great strain upon their personalities and lives. Those that go on to college have already been promised a job by the big corporations and they mostly know everything after high school so when they go to college they just hang out and play tennis for four years. On the contrary the American kid who received a broader based and more relaxed education while in high school really takes off when they go to college if they want to, it is up to the individual. One analysis said that the American system creates more independent and self motivated people and thinkers.

Sounds like a mantra of any religious school intent on capturing the minds of the children forever.

Strange and so factious sounding. Would a person really intent on such evil let his intentions be known in this way?

Mussolini was talking about his ideal state like Mike talks about his ideal when every thing will be "clean", when we recognize his point of view. In America the public schools are the source of diversity and freedom. The kids come from all walks of life, ethnic, religious and economic backgrounds and thereby learn tolerance and understanding. In the private schools kids often wear uniforms and are marched this way and that and taught dogma. The public schools are a bulwark of freedom and democracy. They are not run by the "state" but by the people in their communities.

Archer I was thinking of you when I said God have mercy. We have had enough Pol Pots in the world, uneducated anarchists whose jealousy of education causes them to strike out and destroy every thing it has built.

Lenin was right in observing that children are very imprssionable and thus we should be careful to whom we entrust them. Jesus said "suffer the little children to come unto me". So He is a great start. Beyond that it is generally observed that children need people in their lives beyond Mommy and Daddy. If we keep them real close to ourselves they may never learn anything and rather than have a life of freedom and choices they may grow up to be just like us (God have mercy) and be coal miners, carpenters etcetera when they could have been something else.

I believe human beings have rights and that includes children. Parents who might refuse to teach their chldren should be denied their children at least enough hours in the day for education. Parents should be given first priority in teaching their children but community standards should be established by the parents assembled. Parents should have rights as parents but that does not make them gods. In my town we have a High Schoold and Private Academy side by side. People can choose but they must educate their children.

And it is a great weapon to have. When done right most "educated" people can see eye to eye on things like truth and science. Hey J if you have seen some of the parents I have you would not want them the parents to educate your children either. If parents had any skill at education I say let them go for it. Unfortunately very few do and that is why we hire professionals. As far as global warming it was over in April when an org calling itself "Nongovernmental Project on Climate Change" got together and issued a report with 23 authors (some of them not scientists) from 15 countries which in essence said "human activity is not a cause for concern". They hedged their bets by adding this caveat or caution: "AT LEAST NOT YET". (I understand this group is considering a report saying that the earth is round.) They issued their report to counter the original report of Intergovernmental Project on Climate Change which had 100's of scientists from 100 countires. Michael Oppenheimer of Princeton U. said, "the core of the science on climate change is settled, and nothing these people do is going to change that". By these people he meant the likes of Ralph Reed, one of Jack Abramoff''s friends etcetera. This meeting was sponsored by some oufit called The Heartland Institute. What we all would like to know is: why do these people do this, what is motivating them?

Good stuff Logan. A thought, philosophy or statement that changed my life by changing my thinking was by Emerson in his essay "Self Reliance". He made what was to me a revolutionary statement when he built on the truth "that all men are created equal". He said each of us to day are in the sight of God equal to any man that has ever lived including the prophets. We are not more equal or greater than they but we are intrinsically equal in rights to have thoughts, use our minds etcetera. We should respect those folks and give some due to those who have stood the test of time but we should not bow the knee as you seemed to say in a subservient manner. I have worked through some rock and roll song books and one would have to be totally nuts not to see the connection from artist to artist, decade to decade and generation to generation.

I think withdrawal is okay as long as the parent educates their child up to an acceptable standard. I suggest that is exactly what we now have. All parents are free to send their child to a private school or perform home schooling or to avail themselves of the co-operative schools run by the local school board, or start a new school as long as they all meet acceptable standards.

You I believe are significantly behind the times Archer. Children are people too and have rights beyond being property of their parents. If parents refuse or fail to educate their children or teach them to read then the community has the right to force the issue. You confuse government with everything including college, community and society. I am not totally acquainted with education law but do not believe that there is a Federal Law requiring education. The various states have enacted laws requiring that children be educated. If the parents do not undertake to do so personally or through a private instructor or shcool then the community or state as you would call it will do so. Now if I am correct then any state could eliminate this requirement at will, I suggest that they do not do so because they know that people wish to avail themselves of "public" education and would flee the territroy and the territroy would fail economically, culturally and become a backwater. As far as the Puritans you miss the point Archer. In their society I suggest that it was just as common (just as much compulsion maybe more so) due to the teachings of the church, which in their case was also the state, to send their progeny to school as it is today for parents to send their children to school. Society does compell us to do certain things. You are probably unaware of it but parents often choose their place of abode based on the caliber of the local "state" or "community" schools. Where the doctors and lawyers live the kids have Olympic size swimming pools etcetera. In the lower class areas well things are not as good. People try to migrate to the better school areas.

Not totally contrary Archer. I strongly believe your world travels and independent study could be wonderfully enhanced by college education and vice versa for the college kid. You also appear to have been corrected for your aspersions on some folks uncultured used of language.

Academic discourse as opposed to political banter and BS requires extensive research, footnoting and attribution as to sources. Opinions are cheap enough but facts, knowledge, and opinions of respected authorities are jewels to be treasured.

Is this happening in Canada just as much as in America. My local VFW paid for and installed a display at our local high school that promotes the values you discuss. It bothered me however that we did not do it anonymously, we made sure that VFW got plenty of credit for this. I don't know that what you say is true at all Carlton. My son has made it and runs his own Real Estate Appraisal Business. My nephew is a PHD at OSU. If you watch College Jeopardy or visit your local schools you might get a different view of things. I am proud of young America but hopefully not to naive to know that sadly enough there are also to many unmotivated underachievers and gangs and drugs etc. So what is new?

Ken what do you think about a scenario where several groups of parents work together and take turns in teaching all of their children at the same time. You know modern America was built on separation of labor. The group of parents might even hire one or the other of the parents to teach permanently. I mean the view of each parent having to retreat to their long house several evenings a week and the various families never talking to each other about these things is quite a spectacle to contemplate.

Mike my step-father is the descendant and name sake of John Balch who arrived in Mass in 1625. He built a home in 1631 now called the "Balch House" and still standing. Google it or if that Norwalk is in Connecticut or visit it, it is in like Lynn or Beverly, Mass. Puritan Society Mike was highly organized and regimented, they established Harvard I believe prior to 1650. Being people of the word reading was a vital part of their society, Whether they were compelled by the whip or just the soft compulsion of social norms or doing what was normal or normative they learned to read and I feel competent to suggest that the children felt compelled in either case.

Being lettered or unlettered does not make the man or the woman. As the gracious person should not discrinate against the one he should also not discriminate against the other. College Degrees have been awarded to a lot of fools and a lot of uneducated folk have great minds. Some will criticize the level of education or culture of the current crop of high school pass throughs or those who speak "not good English", or as some have called it ebony speech. These cultural backwaters should take heart in the words of Leonardo.

The best disputation is done by those who have assimilated, digested, and mulled over disparate snippets of knowledge and made of it their own truth which they can then exclaim as thoughts of their own. On the other hand honest discourse should give occasional reference to others thought. It is said that nothing is new under the sun and we should give foot notes and credit where credit is due.

Maybe this is a chicken and egg thing. Desiring to know, (one must have an open mind) might make men good. Having a closed mind, desiring not to know might make men bad.