“Liberty is quite as much a moral as a political growth,--the result of free individual action, energy, and independence.”

We hold this truth to be self evident; it has been proved over, and over again. Its hard to imagine dropping just one of the accolades out of the sentiment and have liberty truly flourish.

I'm with you Mike, but I can hear the separation of church and state crowd opening up with this quote.

The ideology of freedom and liberty requires the individuals participation in the animated contest of achieving excellence. Again, the nanny state that doles out "don't work checks" to farmers and others has done it's best to kill this ideology, and create controllable dependants.

Right on, J and Mike. Anon, I, like Jefferson, believe in separation of church and state but this doesn't keep me from loving this quote and opposing those misfits in The Congress who are stealing our liberties.

Uncontrolled spending by the Feds in order to control us. This is eating away at our liberty and independence.

jim k, I to believe in the separation of church and state in that anyone of of any religious persuasion carried the morality they learned from their particular religion into office which office, by oath, was taken to uphold the protections of the rights of the individual. This was the fine line of the separation of church and state wherein the oath taker carried the morals learned from his particular religion into office to do his job of protecting those rights but in no way was he to make law that favored his or anyone elses. This was just as true when it came to favoring another individual or group of individuals. So much for special interests. The oath taker had one job and that was it, to make sure all individual's rights were protected and that's it. As long as our oath takers were moralistic their job was both very simple and limited by the writing of the Constitution and the Bill of rights. I hope this helps you to understand my position better.

Morality is born out of liberty as much as liberty is born out of morality. Morality is the choice to do good instead of evil, to choose charity over greed, and to choose right from wrong. Choices enforced at the point of a gun is not morality, it is enslavement. The only truly moral men must be free.

According to Kevin RC Gutzman, JD., Ph.D in his book, "Separation of church and state is not in the Constitution (some ratifying states had official religions)." See page 175 and 176. His book is called the Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution. In chapter 10, he states "Guess what? The states have the right to establish religions." So there was no separation of church and state without the help of Justice Hugo L Black. Please read it, it is very interesting to see how this all came about.

I think it is absolutely a moral growth which our politics should enforce. Because he did not say "absolutely" I give it only a four.

Morality cannot be forced -- that is why it is morality. The enforcement of 'morality' is the corruption of morality. It must be freely chosen or it is not morality at all but simply obedience or coersion. The 'church' has no monopoly of morality -- just consider the history of religions like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism -- an ocean of blood. People can be moral, but not groups. Morality is an individual contribution, and when freely observed, all benefit.

Liberty is a moral issue and our politics and those we elect should be of that moral persuasion and support and enhance that moral position,

Liberty naturally flows from, and is delimited by, moral constraint.

Waffler, morality can not be lawfully legislated. Liberty is a lawful issue while being implemented through a system of order. Liberty is: “The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature.” (Bouvier’s Law Dictionary) Liberty is the “exemption from extraneous control. The power of the will, in its moral freedom, to follow the dictates of its unrestricted choice, and to direct the external acts of the individual without restraint, coercion, or control from other persons. Liberty is the right which nature gives to all mankind of disposing of their persons and property after the manner they judge most consistent with their happiness, on condition of their acting within the limits of the law of nature, and so as not to interfere with an equal exercise of the same rights by other men.” (Blacks Law Dictionary 1st ed.) Liberty: "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." (Thomas Jefferson).

THUS: LIBERTY - as a lawful issue at order, can be legislated - for or against. The greater the liberty - the greater the morality; the greater the despotism and tyranny (anti-liberty; such as is currently present in the occupying statist theocracy infesting this land), the greater the immorality.