Beautiful stuff Robert. A further word on this chicken and egg riddle "do or be what you are or you are what you do" was summed up by Frank Sinatra when he intoned, "dobedobedo".

We may be missing the salient part of this saying. Most of us would try to correct the "bad" in the other guy as we often do on this site. Confucius however said he would analyse whether or not he had the same "bad" in himself and if so correct it. He was apparently not into criticizing the "bad" in the "bad" guy.

I have heard a riddle like this, "you do what you are , you are what you do". What we do changes us. That is the beauty of education, as a child (person) moves from grade to grade this riddle unfolds in them.

Thank goodness for both the good and the bad where would we be with out them.

Great quote apropos are need to change the way we do things in reference to energy.

Yes the their is truth or half truths in every thing. Except with Archer it is all bull. I was only trying to imply that their is such a thing as knowledge, scientific method etcetera. I have been to Casa Grande in central Az where th big house was built to align with celestial events, I know of Mayan culture blah blah blah. I agree Archer that the schools for the Native Americans were government schools because the indians had no voice in them. Our schools today which I will guess educates upwards of 60 or 70 percent of Americans and probably similar institutions in every country around the world are not "govenment" schools but community schools. I hate your logic and facetiousness to say in effect knowledge does not exist. And children and indians and all of us have to be introduced to bodies of knowledge, things as simple as hygiene understanding bacteria and disease etcetear.It is just your Pol Pot nihilist gold standard personality I hate Archer thus I am glad to be your enemy. "Give a kid a telescope and he will figure it all out." You are certifiable Archer. Next you will tell us that all you need do to is give a kid a series of steel balls on strings and show him how they bounce back and forth and he will then be a physicist. You are certifiable Archer.

Archer I did not say that noble "savages", native Americans (who were really a stone age society) or hunter gatherers, or children are lost. They were and are all smart and noble. But somehow they had not progressed to the state of European culture. They just like children did not have the knowledge of science, etcetera of what we call the western world. You think the idea to "learn" a child about astronomy is to give him a telescope. With your antipathy to teaching I would assume you intend to leave him alone to figure it all out on his own. No books or encyclopedia's for that is the same thing as having a teacher. Native Americans taught their children what they could but your phiolosophy seems to disparage knowledge as amassed in institutions or collectives in your warped terminology. I think you are a nihilist."a political doctrine that the existing structure of society should be destroyed".

Yes and the mentality that snears at or looks down upon their neighbors who may freely join together in groups or "collectives:is not free himself nor does he wish freedom for them.

Communism is dead, J where have you been. The American society and its educational system beat it. Wake up. But then with out the bogey man of communism you would have nothing to live an fight for.

In every society their will be a concept called "normative" you know that big area under the bell shaped curve. If the "self" has trouble with that their ain't much we can do about it. We all try to conform to group dyamics. When in Rome and all of that rot. But this tendency of life and society is not intentional or devious or evil. It is simply the way things are. A person who feels that "they" are out to change us is just a sick paranoid individual. Many of those fighting to be themselves also want to change us to be just like them. Let us live and let live, eh!

They should not be attempting anything in the first place. This is where social engineering comes in. All they are suppose to do is learn the kids to read open their minds to the beauty of things like art, poetry, literature, the sciences etc and let them fly. Lewis was an Englishman and apparently was talking about English educationalists so it has no meaning to American schooling.

It does not matter at whom's expense it is. Acquistion of head knowledge requres a person to spen much time in doors, seated and thinking, sutudying. Much knowledge requires a building block approach. Recreating afterwards is a good idea. A sound mind in a sound body. I deny that there is an intentional desire to restrain natural abilities. That is why colleges teach basket weaving.

There is an element of time, and patience in many things. You can accomplish anything if you have patience, just ask a Doctor who has a lot of them. Seriously though school just like a Doctor holding a patients hand until he gets well, parents and teachers are doing the same for students until they are able to "fly" on their own. It is not perfect. Human beings are not machines and good education should not treat them that way but give the child, the teenager, the college student opportuniies to be themselves, grow in many different ways and make of this thing we call life what they will. I think the idea of "life as art" is a good approach and an apporach that stresses LIBERTY and choice.

It is a matter of outlook. The misanthropes will always see things this way. You can be about as happy and enolved in life as you want to be. Peer pressure can be a problem so parents need to supplement the educational process. I wonder what N. meant by higher education. We now generally consider it to be that beyond High School.

Archer do really believe that children know about astronomy, physics, blah blah blah. An education should allow persons to explore knowledge. Now you Pol Pot, and I guess Jim from Austin just wants education to give kids a job, like flipping burgers so they can eat, shelter themeselves and raise more burger flippers. I like giving people the opportunity to create a life of meaning and purpose for themselves. If being a savage was so great how come they gave it up and why don't you go back to it.

With your anti school, anti college, anti university, anti society, and telling people how to spend their time, anti pop culture you remind me of a Pol Pot type mentality with his burnt earth policies. A smart alec is a person who is offensively smart. The offense is in the eye of the beholder. It is easy to offend you with truth and facts and I will surely keep doing it. Your welcome you ungrateful rogue!

Archer, I am glad I sound smart and don't sound like an opionated bull shitter. Go back to your Pol Pot, Gold Standard studies etcetera. Thanks for being my enemy, I am here to get you to become honest.

One did not have to read Mead to know of her book its tremendous influence and her rise and fall. You only had to go through the last 30 years with your eyes open. Obviously Archer you did not and you do not have your eyes open now. I will take the smart alec comment as a tremendous compliment. Your Pol Pot mentality is frustrating. You always cast aspersions on pop culture, TV etcetera. If a people are not free to pick their culture then what the hell is freedom all about.

Jim this quote was not about public school but about school. Your bias always shows.

Archer Mr. Kandel never met you maybe Mikey from Norwalk or Pol Pot or that matter. Anyone who thinks children, natve Americans, hunter gatherer types know about the existence of knowledge is lost.

I know I am doing great because my handle is listed in so many responses. Why don't you guys with no thoughts of your own go back to staring at the back of the cave wall where you obviously spend the bulk of your time before you sign on here. "Worldwide recognition exists today that full economic development depends on universal education." Who ever wrote that has never meant Archer and some of the folks on this site.(Oh! it was written by I. L. Kandel) Why doesn't Liberty-tree ever list quotes like this?

You have flipped Archer. Go back studying your gold standard. I know as much about her as you do. Your brow beating tyrannical dictating style does not befit a site dedicated to Liberty. You want to tell the world what to watch, what music to listen to everything else ad nauseam. You are as much about Liberty as well I just don't know what. I never said it was a fact anymore then Liberty-tree says these quotes are facts.

Margaret Mead's magnum opus was "Coming of Age in Samoa". It was widely published and accepted as true. Derek Freeman says "Mead's book stands as the worst example of self-deception in the history of behavioral science, She was dead wrong about everything she said about Samoan culture." What does this tell us about education from Grandma?

Schooling is simply the creation of awareness that knowledge exists. Going for the knowledge is a personal decision and effort. If one does not know that knowledge exists he can not go for it.

It is wonderful for children to have such talented parents. Many don't but we can learn and should learn from all with whom we come into contact. I heard Margaret Mead speak on my college campus. I thus looked up to her. Was disappointed later when I heard that her studies and conclusions about South Pacific culture were pretty much debunked.