Learned of a new group today "Partiotic Majority PAC". Isn't it interesting that some would seem to think that the patriots are a minority or small number of people. Is it possible that the majority are the patriots. Some think patrioism is placing the founders and the Constitution on a sacred pedestan and then to stop thinking and treat the founders and the Constitution as "sacred". I think true patriots are people who continue to learn, think and be creative. A Harvard historian has a new book titled "The Whites of Their Eyes" in which she expores what she explores what she calls the false notions of patriotism of the Tea Party movement. Check it out.

His discription made me think of Mafia types who were very loyal to their faimiles, self reliant and exercising initiative in ignoreing the laws of government and society and willing to shoot first and ask questions later. ,

I dislike you Mike because of your tortuous posts!

J I don't understand your insertion of the "person/ taxpayer" dichotomy. Are you trying to open a new line of discussion.

I agree that oppression or persecution does not mean that the opressed or persecuted are correct.

Yes and along with spirtuality comes a commonality. A good society should have some core common values and the highest of these should be honesty, which has been woeully laking in some quarters lately.

I am in league with Archer (God forbid!) but I can not help it as concerns tolerance for liars. Politcal promises are intentions, a president, a senator, can state what he will do but he is not a dictator and cannot do it himself. America, if you have not heard or experienced is a place of compromise and Palin, O'Donnelly and Cheney are liars and I hate them. If they are not liars they are just plain stupid like Mike and I still hate them.

What is the difference Mike between a "sovereign" and an "individual" in your lexicon? How do individual sovereigns express their distrust for the founding fathers and for the Constitution or is this verboten in your twisted mentality?

That is not the point J, the point is I do not lie about it. Palin and O'Donnell are damn fools and liars and sadly there are many who follow fools and liars, and RBESRQ is correct once we go down the slippery road of Republican lies we are lost. Remember this one by Cheney, "Deficits and national debt don't matter" Wher were all these right wingers then, now they say they do matter, what gives we these idiots!

Read the quote J! Distrust is a much greater safe guard against tyrannts in a democracy than in any other form of government is what thid Greek is saying. In democracy the individual can act via his vote. How do we channel our distrust if we have no vote as in some kinds of republics? Democracy is our safe guard for in it and through it we can channel our distrust.

Thus it is that the likes of Palin, O'Donnell and the Tea Partiers must be dumped into the trash can of lies and evil. Palin said that the health bill had "death panels" O'Donnell said "mice have human brains". How any American or human being could support folk like this is beyond me. They among other silly Tea Party Republicans like Joe Miller make one want to run into his own cave and keep his shotgun pointed at the outside world.

All above have shown their true colors finally. While Jim and J generally eschew democracy and Democrats they have shown themselves to be at least true to the democratic ideal of distrust and power to the little guy and the thus the power of voting and majority rule over and against elites and tyrannts and ruling minorities.

A GREAT quote! Reminds me of tha O'Donnell broad who says she BELIEVES evolution is a myth. Would it not be better if she did not tell us what she believes but tell us what she knows. People say what they believe when they don't know. We need more statements of FACT and less statements of BELIEF in this old world.

The nuclear family view thinking that you and yours are the center of the earth is kind of immature don't we think.

The quotes are really lousy and half baked today. Obama-care is not about what Publius says it is about the tyranny of uninsured people using "our" emergency rooms and not paying. Then govermental health agencies must bail out the hospitals. It is also about the tyranny of actuaries and insurers who see the easy way to make a killing.

Self-government means more than just self-reliance. It meant a people who could govern themselves without a monarcy or ruling class. Self-reliance is more akin to no government at all. Self-reliance does not envision the need for law or regulation. Self-government means that the self-reliant ones agree together on certain issues, means and customs of action

What does she mean by BASIC? What issues are moral and what are not? I agree with her on knowledge but would prefer she said FACTS. Truth okay as long as it is objective truth. I am to tired this AM to discuss rational conviction.

Great comments by gazer and Messer. This quote of Dulles surprises me. Of course European and English societies have not swallowed whole hog our idea of free market plunder. The Euros believed in such plunder long ago and called in feudalism and serfdom.

Robert first of all the "new world order" is not a capitalized thing. It is not a monolithic entity. It is simply the sum total of national and international laws that set the parameters of how peoples world wide interact and do business. The earth needs such parameters it also needs consensus on things like population etcetera. We must. inspite of our often natural tendency to do otherwise, rely occasionally at least, on intelligence. The current right wing Tea Party is a no nothing, the hell with knowledge, phenomenon.

The fact that David Rockefeller and Henry Kissinger both agree on the idea of NAFTA is a very compelling fact. There is and has always been a world order, just like there is an "order" in my town, county and state. New people, new politicians, new laws or the end of old laws change the order from time to time, but there is always an order. Y'all should get use to that fact and quit bemoaning "the new world order".

Ah visionaries, may their numbers increased. Since time began man has sought ever and ever greater degress of prosperity and cooperation. It is in our veins to want to prosper and see others prosper. Except of course Mike and Archer who don't give a big rats A&* if anyone but themselves prosper. There has always been a new world order or at least a dream of one. The Judeo-Christian belief and value system that has shaped the west has always been one of a salvationist society one that is getting better and improving. Who in their right mind except Mike and Archer would want it any other way.

Mayors, governors, Presidents are leaders of communities. Get a grip really!

Jim K everybody paid their own way to Spain even Michelle and girls. The only cost to government was Secret Servuce Protection. I hope we never elect a President or politician who does not care about these things. American car companies are making profit, stock market is up, recession is over, the disastrous Bush tax cuts and debt (remember when Cheney was preaching to us that "DEFICITS DON'T MATTER) spending may come to an end if only we can get the four guys above on board this train. Obama cares about our national community Bush screwed it saw it as a place where his rich friends could make a killing.

Only the Christian Heaven is socialist. A place where everyone's needs are met, water runs free and love and peace abounds. On earth manipulation, suffering, pain and greed is what we should stive for and accept. Social-ism moves towards doing things together, capital-ism moves towards doing things individually. The two are like matter and anti-matter and never actually meet and touch each other for they would then blow up. Society between these two evils is the best.

I doubt that the Constitution was meant to prevent rational solutions to problems. If it was then it is time we change or amend it. Primarily Tugwell and his policies got farmers out of poverty by reducing production and raising prices.