“It is very comforting to believe that leaders who do terrible things are, in fact, mad. That way, all we have to do is make sure we don't put psychotics in high places and we've got the problem solved.”

Ok, I'm smiling

I have a notion that all lberals have some sort of mental defect or why would they be libs. Supporters of left wing causes in Lenin's time were known as "useful idiots" and would have been the first ones shot if the commies had taken over.

Yeah, I know! ;-)

Yeah Jim, you and the commies hate the liberals equally. That is because you and the commies hate freedom equally. You may stop short of shooting them, you just want to make them shut up, so your propaganda becomes paramount. In spite of yourself Jim your true colors often shine through. It bemuses me constanly that folks come on a site like Liberty-tree and all they do is bash the idea of liberty.

Too bad we didn't apply that principle eight years ago.

Uh, Waffler, do you need a refresher on the definition of 'left'? I thought you pointed this out a while back. The 'left' or libs as Jim is referring to them ARE the socialists -- even the communists call themselves socialists and leftists. The commies and the 'libs' share every ideal except for freedom of speech and beliefs which apparently is the only rights they want to keep -- the rest be damned. How many times does the Communist Manifesto need to be posted here -- every plank is indeed a plank for the 'left', 'libs', commies, whatever you want to call them. Classic liberalism would be considered anarchy today -- today's so-called 'liberals' beg for government to borrow and spend on them and tax the others. And the result is the crashing of the economy we see today. A politician can't even get elected on the platform of reducing government spending -- only on more government spending! And since we borrow every dime for these entitlements (another word that implies that we are 'entitled' to these government handouts) we merely pass the hot potato to someone else. I challenge Waffler to list the 'ideas of liberty' that are being 'bashed' on this site. Certainly holding a different opinion than his does not count except in the World According to Waffler. Whenever Waffler has to face his own hypocrisy he cries about everyone ganging up on him -- boo hoo. Let's see the list 'cause I think you're full of donkey doo.

"Power corrupts." "Whom the gods would destroy, first they make crazy." They might be "sane" when put in office, but the overwhelming illusion of power over others makes them crazy as hell within a short time. We have created offices no human can fill without becoming mad.

Earth to Waffler, Earth to Waffler, come in....

The promblem is WE DO. Archer and Jim please... the neocons are now our biggest socialists - they are wolves dress in sheep's clothing. Under Bush we have more governement/bureaucracy than ever before. For your edification, the term Left came about through the French Revolution when the middle class sat on the left and nobility sat on the right. The most important value Liberals fight for is individual liberty, read your history books. Liberals were for the people and their rights. It's you right-wing fascists that spew hatred and division to achieve your corrupt goals. Your tied rhetoric of the Libs spending and more government is just a smoke screen for your own inability to live within your means. Under the right wing government we have borrowed more, spent more, and are in debt more, than ever before. Please stop this tied (very tied) liberal bashing as it doesn't work anymore and THE PEOPLE are gradually seeing through this propaganda double talk. You would have no America if it was not for the Liberals that brought you our constitution. And stop this rubbish about classical liberalism - a Liberal is a Liberal and its neocons and people like you that try and change us - we will not change, we will always be there, even to protect those who we disagree with. The Great Charter is proof of that. Waffler well done; don't be deterred by this far-right contingent. and remember, Jesus rode a Donkey, and coming from an Atheist that's not bad.

Robert lol. You're absolutely right about the neocons but, today's liberals have no semblance to the liberal mind set that made this country the greatest nation on earth. I haven't heard a liberal: cry foul under the 9th or 10th amendment, try and return to Article 4 Section 4, limit government, want a government of law vs a government of men, abolish compelled compliance, license, victimless crimes, governmental larceny with impunity, etc., etc., etc.

The so called conservatives (those polluters and destroyers of anything of value intended by the word conservationist) are falling like moths into the fire due to their decades long mantra of pro-life, no taxes, guns, wealth to the wealthy. while at the same time they have put our blessed Nation 10 trillion dollars into debt by selling lucrative bonds to their rich friends, the Russians and Chineese. The majority of licenses are issued by States, apparently this is one of the rights reserved to them by the 9th and 10th. As far as the Constitution being some perfect document even the founders did not think so, that is why they gave us the Amendment Process. That act alone testifies to what great democratically minded men they were.

Waffler, you again make me smile great big while shaking my head. I won't go into your entire mantra of half truths, misrepresentations, and untruths, but for one; If licensing was reserved to the States, then the State would issue all privileges to perform otherwise illegal acts, not just the majority thereof.

Archer, I think you're the one who needs the refresher on "left" or "liberal". They do not advocate socialism, which is a system of government ownership of all property and services. As a liberal myself, I do not want to see government ownership of propery, but merely enough regulation and oversight of business to prevent what is requiring $700 billion to bail it out

I was only referring to your mantra about licensing. Since you seldom adequately or specifically say what the hell you are talking about, I reread the 9th and 10th which concern powers left to the states or the people. I rightly or wrongly feel that the complaints from you are directed at e DC and the Feds. I was only trying to remind you above that most licensing is a function of the various states. Since most states of which I am aware have similar licensing what does it tell you about the rightness or wrongness of the subject or of its politics, left, right or in between. I mean 50 jurisdictions all come up with similar solutions. And these governmental solutions are not brought upon us by the liberals, DC, or big government. They are brought upon us by the diverse politcal cultures of each state. So why do you keep harping on the issue of licensing, and the freedom of the states to do that under the Amendments which you rightly defend. The states are following the constitution in assuming and creating and grabbing any and all powers to which the Constitutiion allows them to do. You got a problem with that?

Waffler, for future clarification, my concerns pertaining to despotism, tyranny, slavery, lawless acts, injustice, compelled compliance, license, victimless crimes, governmental larceny, torture for information, etc. are all directed at where ever such may be found (local, state, federal, religion, etc.). I've given multiple Supreme Court decisions and other references showing how licensing is unconstitutional, so why do you keep supporting government's unlawful and immoral expansion of licensing? What part of unalienable rights is not understood? What or where is the lawful nexus that eliminates or nullifies the individual sovereign's unalienable right and magically has that particular right show up in an alien despot's inherent existence? I have no problem with any government discovering what law is and passing codes, rules, regulation, or statutes as would be within the confines of the Constitution. In fact, that's my desire.

Jack, you are quite right - this present government is closer to communism than any liberal or socialist government. Fascists and Communism meet to complete the circle - they are both an oligarchy, dictatorial, and autocratic. Very similar to what we have now.

Right, left, neo-con, libs -- I am afraid that none of these terms are used accurately. The language has become so twisted by lawyer-speak to cover up the abuses of power by Democrats and Republicans alike that it's like an Orwellian novel come to life. America has been steadily marching towards socialism for nearly a century -- the Dems forward the government welfare/taxation programs and the Republicans forward the military expansion both foreign and domestic. Both sides are beholden to those that control the purse-strings -- the Fed. Jack, the Demos have been proposing nationalist policies for decades to own/control private corporations and create federal 'corporate' monopolies like Freddie and Fanny. Pelosi is crying for national control of oil companies, and unions apply mob tactics and stifle private enterprise. The GOP has completely broken their promises of limited government and used every trick in the book to 'borrow' trillions upon trillions for the military-industrial complex, secret CIA programs, and other 'shadowy' businesses designed to funnel money and power to themselves and their creditors. Neither side will vote to limit what they may spend -- they will only vote for what will be spent on them. WE ARE MERELY VOTING FOR MONEY, and Franklin warned us about the end of the republic when that becomes our focus. There is no 'capitalism' in America anymore because the economy is rigged by the omnipotent counterfeiter, the Fed and all the banks chartered underneath it. Every economist that has tried to warn us (in vain) about fiat currency (i.e. funny money, interest-bearing promissory notes) has predicted the inevitable crash that follows such massive 'money creation.' Congress has printed up so many T-bills in the last 40 years (and rising exponentially every year) that there is no way the dollar can hold its value. Printing up a several trillion since Bush came into office has merely put the nail in the coffin (and let us not forget that a 'Democratic' Congress has been ever so willing). Printing up another $700 billion dollars will be the death knell for the next generation -- they just want to get their last licks in before it all comes crashing down. BTW, this is totally planned and the way it is supposed to work -- watch for the 'Amero', the 'Euro' for the North American Union, to be proposed by the Fed/IMF/World Bank -- they've already gotten them printed and coined ready to go. As long as we keep thinking we can borrow our way to prosperity, we will remain slaves to the 'lenders' -- who by the way LEND NOTHING -- they merely have the 'legal right' to make YOUR PROMISE TO PAY a monetary instrument, legal tender. They have got the left battling the right, but the puppeteer knows how it really works. We need to hack at the root not the branches.

Archer, excellent, you must have seen George Carlins (The American Dream) skit on this very subject, if not go to Utube.

Well did the Founders understand that Fallen Man is a study in incapacitation
in the sphere of his being consistently able to reasonably, rationally, possess power, and exercise authority.

It can reasonably be contended that the will to possess power is a psychopathological ambition, in itself.

I do not subscribe to the 'Fallen Man' allegory -- I more consider my life a process of coming to my feet as the 'Standing Man' -- the 'Stand' is what makes the 'Man.' I am with those that assert 'The good Lord helps those that help themselves.' The Responsible Man. ;-)