“One of the most insidious consequences of the present burden of personal income tax is that it strips many middle class families of financial reserves & seems to lend support to campaigns for socialized medicine, socialized housing, socialized food, socialized every thing. The personal income tax has made the individual vastly more dependent on the State & more avid for state hand-outs. It has shifted the balance in America from an individual-centered to a State-centered economic & social system.”

There would be no wars if wars required taxes. Taxes cannot be paid with dollar bills that the IRS (Imaginary Rvenue Scam) said "are not dollars" or with credit. The Federal Reserve said their system of plunder works "only with credit" that would keep its value "if there were fewer people bidding against each other." in Keeping Our Money (their credit) Healthy, Library of Congress Catalog No. 60-14368 Revised Jan. 1979. The head of the New York Fed gave a speech in 1944 saying "taxation for revenue is obsolete." Since then, taxes are illusions that help regulate the ratio of production to consumption. Can there be a better way to enhance that ratio than to eliminate non-productive consumers such as babies, retirees, cripples and military via abortion, chlorination, fluoridation, aspartame, subsidized milk, sugar and tobacco. Search: nteu fluoride

And so we have traded our liberty for shiny beads that we ourselves made in the first place.

It creates dependants where there should only be innovators and productive endeavor.

Everyone knows at least one idiot who takes fewer deductions than allowed so he can get his own "money" back at the end of the year without interest.

That more insidiously it spawns the type of well paid middle-class job that are fewer and fewer in N.A. For the army of workers collecting and ensuring those taxes are paid. Kinda like the Sheriff of Nottingham was, for his king. So now you have a whole industry dependant on collection and re-distributation and those in this industry drive around in company cars and expense tabs and need large desks and secretaries. etc. ad nauseum. Those taxes are paying for the infrastructure, too. No wonder the ordinary joe is feeling ripped off.

Of course there is some truth in what the gentleman says, but the fact is we want public solutions to some of societies problems. Always have always will. It is difficult for individuals to build roads and dams and armies etcetera. As far as the army involved in the "tax industry" it is nothing compared to other industries. Consider for a moment that the IRS with its approx. 90,000 employs and just 25,000 field agents must examine an economy that has banks which employ more people than that. The Bank of America (just one bank among hundreds or thousands) employs 100,000. The motor companies each employ more than the puny IRS and there are numerous of them etcetera. Also consider that the IRS is the only agency of the goverment that does not cost anything IT PAYS!. For every dollar allocated to its budget it brings in $10. And consider this if you hired a CPA to audit your company or your personal records he would charge you a fee and usually a pretty steep fee. the IRS performs its audits totally free as a Service to the American public. Remember that Service is their last name.

With this philosophy we would have no babies left in America.

The quote speaks for itself and its truth is evidenced in the society we live in today. Now Waffler, on the other hand, is trying to tell us the IRS is not only providing us a service, but we should be happy as this "service" they're providing is actually not costing us anything! His Wafflelogic keeps topping itself. I don't even know how to reply to his thinking ... I'm utterly speechless.

Zeitgeist do you know of anyone whose books and records have been audited. Check it out the IRS does not charge for that service. CPA audits are expensive very expensive. The public needs to be able to rely on the financial statements of businesses and of individuals in order to due honest business. Agian the IRS does not charge you for determing that your accounting is correct. A CPA however will charge you. What exactly is it that you do not get! Sometimes the IRS may charge an auditee a penalty for getting the accounting to wrong and some may look at this penalty charge by IRS as a fee. As far as any taxes due and interest thereon these are simply matters of law and common sense.

Again, Waffler, you make a point of saying the IRS doesn’t charge us for the benefit of providing us the service of checking our figures after they take our money. Wow. This can only make sense for an individual that works for the IRS - and I've yet to hear even them say such a thing. I can't believe this conversation ... I give up.

The IRS does not take your money. A portion of every dollar you take in belongs to the Federal Treasury and generally to a State Treasury by law. The IRS is simply an org dedicated to see that the law is followed. Cops don't make you stop at stop signs, the law does. Cops are there to see that the law is obeyed. Why can you not dig this Zeitgeist. I understand that I am giving you a new way of talking and a new way of thinking, but that is what you need. Please don't give up, it is a pleasure to converse with you.

Every dollar of income tax goes directly to pay the interest on the (fiat) money borrowed from the deceptively named Federal Reserve. The whole thing is a hoax.

Waffler, the ole adage of you pay for what you get is very appropriate to your comment. What is the actual percentage of the total tribute, forcibly extracted from the slaves, that is forfeited over to the IRS for its operations (we'll never know, too many liars and too many crooks in the statist theocracy and their lackeys at the IRS) ? The IRS can not be held responsible for its help in putting in order personal or business' books. I know individuals that had IRS assistance in organizing their financial books and then got fined and penalized for that which was wrong. A CPA can be held responsible for his action and he is paid for is supposed / hoped / known educational -practical - experienced expertise. So again, the IRS does not charge you for determining that your accounting is correct, they just fine and penalize you for what they arbitrarily want. Another of Waffler's selective memory half truths as usual. Then you state another Progressivism's half truth (-: maybe 100 to 1 truth ;-) the public needs to know. In the de jure U.S., the public is a reference to individual sovereigns united. If one does not have the right to look into my personal affairs, none have a right to look into my personal affairs (individually or in concert) So assuming we live in a representative Republic as guaranteed by the individual sovereigns, defining such through their original Constitution and, we are a nation of laws (codes, statutes etc. to be determined from and harmonized with The Laws of Nature and of Nature's God) who is this public that he needs to know my personal business. Is this public some one I can subpoena into court for violating my unalienable right to privacy, is he my servant with such deranged machismo that he thinks he can compel me by some sort of monarchal authority? hmm, who is the despotic foreign public? Waffler, why do I need to be able to rely on the financial statements of businesses and of individuals in order to due honest business with them. In my business I buy raw materials and send out finished product. Quality, price, and reliance on my and my supplies word that the product will perform as stated, not financial statements and books regulate whether I stay in business or not. For anyone to stay in business they must have an accurate accounting of that business. Again, knowing that Wal Mart has accurate accounting, how does that help me make a decision to buy theirs or somebody else's product. What this all really comes down to is your immediately above statement. You believe the We The People are lawfully slaves to the Federal Treasury, State Treasury, the IRS, cops and all related tyrants, despots, and otherwise criminal hegemonies.

We should all expect to pay taxes for those things that provide for our safety and security from foreigners and home-grown groups who do us harm. This is called infrastructure: roads, bridges, dams, levees, police, and armed services. These are the things that society does not want to, nor is prepared to, take care of on their own. The problem with taxes begins when government entities think they can use them to alter our behavior to comply some grand scheme. Nowhere in the thoughts and letters that the Founding Fathers made public is there anything that recommends a tax on income, nor have they expounded on how great an idea welfare or Nationalized Health Care is. In fact they warned us against all such notions because they knew from experience in the "old country" they would make us slaves to the government. To all of you government "crack" babies who feel you cannot survive without the government's help, I say you should be ashamed of yourselves for being the greedy, selfish, useless slugs you are. Sure, there are those who are physically and mentally unable to care for themselves and I suppose government care is appropriate (only because so many peple are greedy, selfish, useless slugs who are too lazy to take care of those helpless family members). To you government "crack" babies: earn your own damn money and leave mine alone so I can provide what's best for my family, and with what's left over, I will be able to donate to worthy causes that will be glad to give you a helping hand so long as you do a little work in return.

Mike all I am saying is the money that the IRS collects for the Treasury is under law the Treasuries money. The IRS nor the government wants a penny that is not theirs. What is theirs is determined by the aciton of laws passed by the American People and yes they want what is theirs every last dime of it. When you go to work or open a business you have a silent partner who under law is due a portion be it 10% up to 35% of your income after allowable deductions, In their generosity the American people have said that folk with kids, heavy health bills etcetera can pay a little bit less. Should we not be thankful for such a charitable system. The money you pay your fed and state governments is not yours, never way. IT IS THEIR's and don't get caught withholding it from them.

May I ask, Waffler, how you know all this?

Archer you can read about it in Publication 17, "Your Income Tax". Simply google it! Ever heard of google?

What you have been writing is not in that publication, Waffler. What makes you an authority on all this tax stuff? Sounds to me like you have some career experience related to it. I would like to be able to put your comments in context -- are you or were you an IRS auditer? Were you a tax accountant? If you are just a guy googling the IRS, then that is one thing, but if you spent years with this, then it is another. What's the big secret?

Waffler I bet you think the unemployment compensation, disability, workman comp premiums and social security percentages I pay on my employees belongs to the state as well. It costs me over $130.00 to pay them when they have earned $100.00 in wages. Of course they pay 1/2 of their own "social security" - that would be 7.65% and them the Fed Income tax comes out of the hundred as well. I am trying to educate you just in case you do not work for the IRS or the Franchise Tax Board of some state. I have been audited by the Franchise Tax Board of California . They found nothing , but it wasted 3500.00 in accounting fees and endless ours of my time, when I could have been doing something productive, like making more money for them to tax.

This quote is 100% right on! The difference between a republican form of government (guaranteed by the Constitution) and a statist government (i.e. populist, fascist, socialist, communist, etc.) is "individual-centered" versus "State-centered economic & social system."

Waffler has touched on something -- he says the money that the Treasury takes from us in income taxes is already 'theirs.' ;-) Interesting take. But he misses the point -- the IRS collects for the Federal Reserve as terms for issuing money in exchange for Treasury bonds. The 'money' is actually the Federal Reserve's -- ALL of it. We are merely playing Monopoly with the Fed's money, and in the end, no matter who may win or lose the game, it ALL goes back in the Monopoly box.

The truth is, that if what we earn in cash for our labors already belongs to the Treasury, then ipso facto, our labors are already 'owned' by the government -- it is only a matter of voting how much to allow us to keep. Waffler demonstrates a very disturbing mindset -- for our own good, we belong to the government and they will decide what is best for us. At least that is what they truly believe, and their job is to enforce it.

Archer, very well stated. Representing a hard core socialist (anti-constitutional / natural law) perspective, Waffler does a double speak out both sides of his mouth. By way of example; Waffler states the government is a representative servant of you and me. Then he states that government owns you, me and our labors. At law and justice, those 2 scenarios are absolutely antithetical and can not exist at the same time.

Further, Waffler continues to call the tyranny / enslavement of a once free son / daughter of liberty enforced at the end of a gun "law". It is NOT "law", it is despotic rules of enslavement ! The de jure jurisprudence of the representative republic within the States united was/is the laws of nature and of nature's God. Under such system, "law" enforcement is an oxymoron (can one enforce gravity, physics, liberty, bankruptcy, larceny, murder? NO! ! ! - only tyranny can be enforced). Waffler's use of "law" is a false illusion and fiction used by slave masters to keep owned chattel in line; which is, one of the most insidious consequences of the present burden of personal income tax.