So the UN made us do it, eh? Interesting theory, but back-assward. The UN has not originated any of our escapades -- we do, and then we go to the UN in search of justification for them. And when they don't work out, we turn around and blame the UN! That's why, when Iraq II came along, the UN finally told Bush, "We're sick of being your fall guys and butt boys -- you're on your own now, sonny!" If the UN was responsible for our failures in Korea and Vietnam, how do you explain our failures in Iraq? Don't bother to answer, I can guess. Predictable.

Predictable, predictable, predictable. So what sort of "foresight" and "wisdom" did this Lone Voice of Dissent turn out to have? How dangerous to American people and institutions has the UN proved to be? Does no one remember that Langer was an isolationist nut who tried to declare North Dakota an independent country? (Not to mention a crook who was thrown out of office?) You guys need some new material.

The reactions of regular contributors to this forum are distressingly predictable. "New Deal started us down the road to socialism" indeed. Obviously, Jim, you weren't there.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeez, give the ad hominems a rest -- they make YOU sound like an idiot. I don't want the government telling me what to eat or wear, but if something I eat or wear might be dangerous, I want to know about it so I can make my OWN decision on whether to eat it or wear it. And who's going to give me that information if the government doesn't? The manufacturer? Is that so hard a concept for the Cavutos of the world to understand? Apparently it is.

A "courageous and wise man", eh? McFadden was a Nazi, an unabashed antisemite, and a major supporter of Hitler and his policies. When he ran for the presidency in 1936, one of his slogans was “Christianity instead of Judaism.” How soon they forget.

This is the guy who, despite professing love for his country and Constitution, believes America should officially be declared a "Christian nation", and is now apparently trying to build a community of "Christian Patriot" believers and train them in paramilitary skills for a showdown with the government.

For the record, there is no credible source for the "I am a most unhappy man, I have unwittingly ruined my country" quote, and he probably never said it.

First of all "Neither a borrower nor a lender be" is Shakespeare (Hamlet), not Ben Franklin. The rest of the verse reads, "...For loan oft loses both itself and friend/ And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry." It's interesting how those who tell others to "read up on history" are often the most ignorant of it themselves. Context is important here. When Shakespeare and Aristotle and the Christians agreed in denouncing interest (or 'usury' as they called it), they could not foresee the joint stock company, and were only thinking of the private moneylender. Try running a modern company (or government) with only the cash on hand. Those who hate moneylenders in this day and age are usually those who are in debt up to their eyeballs.

I'm amazed at these responses -- are we stuck in the '60s? Surely everyone with a rudimentary knowledge of history knows FDR never said or wrote this. A right-wing Congressman SAID he heard another Congressman say FDR privately told him something LIKE that -- 20 years after FDR died and couldn't defend himself -- in the context of the communist witch hunts of the '60s. Noted fascist John A. Stormer included it, as if it were an actual quote, in his infamous book of lies from that era -- even J. Edgar Hoover said it was ridiculous. And anyone who thinks FDR was "our worst president" needs to do some basic reading on WWII, the Depression, and some of our other presidents, e.g. Grant, Polk, Buchanan, Fillmore, Hoover, and particularly the string of losers we've had over the last 20 years.

With all respect, I'm tired of hearing that it's all the fault of right-wing Republicans or liberal Democrats. That's an intellectually lazy argument, and it's part of the reason we're in this stew. We're not just a nation of factions. We're a people. We share common principles and ideals. And we rise and fall together.

Interesting -- I was about to say something very similar. Bertrand Russell's short tome on authority -- in which he discusses how can we combine that degree of individual initiative which is necessary for progress with the degree of social cohesion that is necessary for survival -- is very relevant to this thread.

Trouble is, 95% of today's high school students would not understand 5% of what she wrote.

I agree, it's a mistake to refer to Congresspeople as "idiots", because they're not. Dishonesty is different than stupidity, and calling the former the latter is a cop-out. By the way, this quote is often ascribed to Will Rogers, and I don't know who actually said it -- perhaps both, perhaps neither.

Now it's an "Indian" saying? It's usually attributed to Tibetan Buddhists. Probably written by some ad executive. Catchy slogan for a T-shirt, but that's about it.

There's a semantic issue here -- with proper definitions the quote makes no sense, because the matter of belief can't be decided on intellectual grounds. There's a big difference between what one KNOWS (based on evidence and reason) and what one BELIEVES (based on faith). Clifford was an agnostic who argued that one cannot believe in God without evidence of his existence. But people of sufficient faith don't require evidence to believe in a supreme being -- faith is enough to support a belief.

One of mine as well. My two favorite Russell quotes: 1. "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." 2. "Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric."

Vice versa even more so.

Straw man argument. Who decided that was our choice? I think most of us would rather be equal in freedom, don't you?

Send a copy to Dubya. Not that he would understand, of course.

I would *love* to hear an enumeration of the "miracles" our violence has wrought in Afghanistan and Iraq -- please spell those out for us, will you? In Afghanistan we have revived the booming heroin trade, and the Taliban is now making a comeback. And Osama, of course, is still at large with no prospect of finding him. In Iraq, where would one even begin? Perhaps with today's (11/7/07) news that 2007 has become the deadliest year for U.S. troops with 852 killed. And no end in sight there either. Miracles indeed.

Explain it to the Indians? They didn't seem to think that stealing their land was a reasonable solution. Can you blame them? And Carthage? Are you comparing us to the Roman Empire? I always love that neocon retort that the only reason violence isn't working is that we're not being violent *enough.* You want obvious? Isn't it obvious that escalation doesn't work in a guerrilla war? (A lesson we obviously didn't learn from Vietnam.) You want more obvious? How about the famous aphorism from Sun Tzu, whose reputation as a military strategist, I submit, is quite a bit more distinguished than any of ours, or Heinlein's: "There is no instance of a nation benefiting from prolonged warfare." Which will bring you back to your solution of "full naked force", I'm sure. Which would precipitate another World War, just as it did when Germany tried "full naked force" -- except this time with nukes, and the end of the world. Nobody thinks these things through.

Yet another timeless message from the Astronomer Poet for our current president -- though it seems highly unlikely that Bush has read the Rubaiyat, or ever will, or would understand any of it if someone were to read it to him.

I love a good cynic!

Here's a bumper sticker I saw today: "My kid is an honor student, but my president is a moron!"