“True liberty cannot exist apart from the full rights of property, for property is the only crystallized form of free faculties...The whole meaning of socialism is a systematic glorification of force... No literary phrases about social organisms are potent enough to evaporate the individual, who is the prime, indispensable, irreducible element.”

Just one more reason why I claim that communism is "intellectually bankrupt." Virtually all of the implementations of communism try to wipe out individual property rights and morph the individual into the "community" --- that's why it's called communism.

Because the individual is, as Herbert says, the prime, indispensable, irreducible element, his (Herbert's) quotation is as ridiculous as it sounds. Socialism is the greatest proponent of and foundation for individual rights. It is laissez faire capitalism that is the glorification of force: the force of might over right.

Well, Dick, you have topped yourself again -- talk about ridiculous! Nazis, Soviets, and Red Chinese -- 'socialism is the greatest proponent and foundation for individual rights'? You've lost it, man. What a perversion of individual Liberty and personal Responsibility.

If every individual has true liberty, the group will have true liberty. The opposite cannot be said. Capitalism allows business to find its own balance. Socialism tells people and business what the balance will be. Capitalism = good, socialism and communism = bad ... in terms of freedom.

Dick, socialism requires people to give up rights, like the right to keep what they earn, and that takes force. Capitalism is about voluntary trades, not force.

Dick, you know we're all laughing and shaking our heads, thanks for the comic relief.

Dick is an old Soviet joke, like Hillary and 99% of democrats. Up is down and the facts must be changed to suit the party line. Why just the other day a walmart employee put a gun to my head, forced me to buy something I did not want, contribute to his health care, and and pay for the education of his children...only in Dick's little fantasy world.

The concepts of socialism and communism is the last defense of scoundrels and intellectually deficient folk. For example while the overwhelming evidence and scientific thinking is that global warming is a real problem the know nothings on the right resort to "It is all a left wing communist plot" etcetera. Once we make something sacred like "capitalism" or "socialism" we create a problem. The answer and always has been in our country pragmatism. The issue between socialism and capitalism is centralizatin versus decentralization. Group dicision making versus individual decision making. Sometimes we need one model of decision making sometimes another.

Socialism is tyranny in its worst form. All socialists are totalitarians at heart. You have to love socialists. If you don't they shoot you.

Bruce, manmade global warming is a hoax of the watermelons of the world. NASA has been caught cooking the books on it temperatures, many of the reporting station are improperly placed and the only thing certain about the climate is that it always changes. I watched them rant and rave about the coming ice age at the first earth day. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, fool me three times, you must be a scientist. I never need or want someone else making decisions for me.

Excellent reply Dick - don't let these bully's deter you from good thinking and sound judgment. Socialism as in social reform social this social that means a group being social no more no less - it also means helping those who are unable to fend for themselves and who unable to afford the medical care they need and shelter - it protects them from the greedy, the bully's of this world, the Scrooges and the uncompassionate. What codswollop to align socialism with communism and fascism. If you want no quarter on Liberty read F.A.Harpers definition - by the way I disagree with that too.

Helorat I wonder where you stand on the 40 year destruction of the Everglades which now is being reversed and may take 50 years to do so. Was that a hoax? When the head of the Army Corps of Engineers was fired by Trent Lott for saying there was to much construction too close to the Gulf Shore of Mississippi and it that it would endanger people and property was that a hoax? Was acid rain a hoax? Was the close destruction of deer, elk and antelope, and mountain lion a hoax? The problem in all of these scenarios is the same problem with global warming. The only interest these naysayers have is money and short term greed. Common sense and care for the environment can Go To Hell as far as these rightists are concerned. And their last argument is "Oh these people are all left wing socialists and communists." 2500 scientists, hundreds of governments, and Al Gore. If socialism is coming to gether for commonality and the common good of each other and the planet I am all for it. John McCain has now called climate change (a republican word for global warming) one of the planks of his Presidential bid. I guess now we can lable him a socialist/commie sym as well as Bush The Worst who is coming over slowly to environmental common sense. We have all of this to thank Saint Al Gore for (and yes he was an important participant in creating the internet. He never said that he invented it.), now that is leadership. Nehamiah said it thousands of years ago, "The human heart and mind is deceitful above all things." All I know is we broke a record in Alabama today at 103.

Sorry Helorat but I forgot. Was Galileo a hoax? He was kicked out of the church by the Pope. Yeah they apologized 500 years later. Politics and religion always trumps science and common sense. Like some scientists say "they believe we can solve this problem because mankind cannot be this stupid". I think they are right but obviously we still have a lot of folks to educate.

As a scientist (yes, a government scientist), let me say I am skeptical of global warming or as it has recently been relabeled, anthropogenic climate change. Of course my livelihood does not depend on a research grant to study "climate change". Follow the money. As for the quote, property is the physical representation of your labor, that is, a part of your life spent doing work for others. If you do not have a right to your property then you also do not have a right to your life.

Ken you do certainly believe that humanity can affect the environment don't you? As far as this being a hoax, what is exactly in it for the pranksters? Do you hoax theorists believe it is totally intentional or just a comedy of errors? This site is loaded with so many individuals that are disrespectful of everything in life from Supreme Court Justices (socialists), Washinton, D.C. in general the politcal cess pool of the world responsible for everything that is wrong with the world, 2500 scientists world wide. As far as the quote one does have a right to his property but virtually everyone must trade his property for the property of others: for example your money for the grocers food, the tire dealers tires, you get the picture. And then you must also exchange your propety for the public roads, the cities police protection, the nations (and your) defense. You get the picture. The public authorities have a right to their propety just as you do yours do they not? So you cannot steal the sewers you must pay for your use. If these authorities do not have a right to their property and its fair rent then they do not have a right to exist.

People can affect the environment on a local scale by such things as clear cutting forests, draining wetlands (what we used to call swamps), paving over large surfaces, etc. Sometimes it is for the better, sometimes for the worse. I see no convincing evidence that anthropogenic causes can affect glaciation, ocean current patterns, and other global processes. The global warming proposal would have you believe that a very small amount of systemic noise produced by humans can overwhelm the orders of magnitude larger signal produced by nature itself. No other system behaves that way. Why should climate? As for motives, you have some cynical scientists who live to produce inconclusive evidence in a study to justify the next grant for the next study. You have some who have so convinced themselves of the great work they are doing that they simply cannot give it up because their perceived self-worth is so invested in the idea. Every foible of humanity can be found in scientists. By the way, do you know how many scientists there are in the world? 2500 is not that large of a crowd. You will also notice there do not seem to be a very large number of geomorphologists and glaciologists in the 2500, perhaps because they are the true experts in large scale global climate change and they know better than to risk their reputations. Now, when I trade my property for another service or good, it is of my own free will. No one forces me to to so. Voluntary exchanges in acquiring and disposing of property is what property rights are all about. I use public roads, sewers, water systems and such properties that are held in common and I have no problem with paying for what I use. Those properties do not belong to the "authorities" however. They belong to the people and the "authorities" are the agents of the people who administer them for the owners.

I have generally been skeptical of garden variety experts. Like in college I spent some real money for text books and then the garden variety professor (after all I did not go to Harvard - no garden varieties there) cast aspersions on the the text and its authors. My first response was "Who the hell does this rinky dinky prof think he is? Not to say however that there are not some unfound geniusess. One does not have to stay in a room too long without fresh air to realize that the increased level of CO2 versus O in the room is causing a problem. Stay there long enough and you will die. I am not a scientist like you Ken but where were peoples brains when for decades and hundreds of years mills throughout this country routinely dumped their waste and/or unwanted by-products into to our rivers and streams. (This gave them short term profits and us long term problems.) I mean where are our brains when we suck smoke into our lungs and lie to ourselves that there is nothing wrong with it, I did it too. But I did quit. Many claimed like you that the Surgeon General and his paid dupe accomplices were just cooking the books in order to feed at the public trough. Thousands of scientists and hundreds of governments and major corporations say that the evidence that carbon emissions caused by the way we do business is causing a significant sustained rise in global temperatures which cause significant changes in the lives and habits of species and they say the EVIDENCE IS OVERWHELMING AND INCONTROVERTIBLE. Whether or not you care about which environment you live in, paradisical or Martian is a value judgement but at least be honest to say that you are opting for the Martian. If you are unsure of the science wouldn't it be better to err on the side of paradise earth rather than just keep dumping like our ancestors did. There is one contributor to these sites who regularly comments on the "theft of the fruit of the noble laborer". I can only guess at what he means by this and my guess is that he means taxation. Yes the public (and some individuals who buy the bonds to build the roads, run the sewers, the military etcetera) owns and empowers agencies to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves very conveniently and authorizes taxation or fees to pay for these things. As one Supreme Court Justice (that hotbed of communism or socialism) said "taxation is the price we pay for civilization".

I logged in late to this thread I guess. As far as the quote is concerned, bang on! The climate change discussion is something else again. I do know and understand that the the Earth's climate does change over time. One could make an agrument that Man's contribution to the atmosphere has 'saved' us from a pending Ice Age, perhaps the very one that scientists were warning us about at the very first Earth Day. If in fact there is too much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, then we should concern ourselves with how to remove it. Seems to men that is the function that trees and vegatation plays in the grand scheme of things. Plant more trees and vegatation. And we will not radically alter our behavior as a species. Science will have to 'discover' a way out in the form of new applications of current knowledge or in a breakthrough in energy technology. That is why we pay for their services, not to tell us that we have to STOP and revert to a lowered standard of living. We are not going to listen to that noise. In the meantime our lives go on, I will continue to fly my small private plane, drive my SUV and air condition my house using existing technology. And anyone or anything that gets in my way is my avowed enemy. You wanna take your chances with me, bring it on. Now we are back to the political, not the practical discussion.

People and philosophies that are enemies of the earth I choose to make my enemies. I got all of that stuff too Eric.

Eric you really touched on something here. Many people are lying that global warming does not exist simply because they do not want to have to make any changes in their perceived perfect way of life. All solutions must start with honesty and recognizing the truth. I have faith in mankinds ingenuity and creativity to solve this and give us even a better way of life but first we must be truthful about the matter. It is like lying when you were a child to avoid a spanking. Should I lie now so as not to suffer and if I get caught later about lying how much worse will it be.

Bruce, since you're from Alabama I thought you might find this interesting: http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=081307B It is by Roy Spencer, Principal Research Scientist, University of Alabama.

I will check it out Ken thanks. I moved here a year ago. Otherwise grew up in Pennsylvania and lived in Chicago for a number of years. Don't trust these rednecks too much. They all live on acreage and think every one in the world does. Tom Brokaw did another special on "climate change/global warming". Awful scary stuff but optimism is there if we get smart real quick.

I read the article Ken, doesn't convince me of anything except yes it is confusing that no one can even agree on "science" let alone difficult issues like politics and philosophy. I do have a problem though with anyone who believes that man cannot affect environment and weather. The problem today is I believe population. There are two organizations that teach, and lobby for population stabilization and reduction, one calls itself Zero Population Growth and the other Negative Population Growth. Basically for the US they teach that immigration should be severly limited and folks should have no more than two children. This should not be hard to live with. The ability of governments to influence such things has been shown in modern times in China where Mao called for babies and China delivered, now they are back tracking and limiting apparently by law one child per couple. It is sad and no one wants this kind of interference in private lives but population impact on environment is obvious and I will still keep and open mind on man's impact on weather. On the television many scientiest I hear speak our adamant that the science is correct.

If only Justices Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsberg and Breyer had leaned more toward this understanding of property. As it is, their willingness to revoke personal property protections for the individual in favor of the public in their Kelo ruling leaves every individual vulnerable to the more powerful collective.

I like this quote-and Dick Trice, are you really from Texas or are you just a transplant from New England?

The second line of the quote tells the whole story of Socialism. Cal, I was thinking thesame thing about Dick Trice, probably came from Massachusetts, the land of Kennedys,Kerrys,and Franks.

Socialism as an enforced doctrine is a cancer on all things, and like cancer it eventually kills its host. Being "social" is something that comes with free and voluntary associations, personally and professionally. When the government gets into the social engineering business we need to clean our guns....or learn to goose step. The choice is still yours.

Socialism is also THEFT!

Duck, if socialism is so great why don't you just go to a country that embraces it fully and live there.

Bruce, you have probably seen Al Gore documentary but the one you should really see is one called "Blue."
Even after the global warming alarmists pseudoscientists have been proven to be engaging in fraud people still believe the hustle.
The whole global warming scam is nothing more than a vehicle to carry a political and social agenda and fortunately I think people are catching on to the scam.

Damn Bruce, you are certainly long winded if nothing else. Global warming is a scam to load us up with more taxes.

The honest individual, through their love of Liberty and honesties intrinsic value, become the prime indispensable, irreducible element. "In order to form a more perfect union."
"True Liberty cannot exist apart from the Full rights of property. For property is the only " crystallized form of free faculties."