Mike in your home schooling system who writes the books. The parents don't some guru somewhere is still the primary teacher of your child. the parents are not the teachers just the facilltators. I again submit that the primary motivation is parental control and indoctrination in order to make the child into a carbon copy of SELF whom one thinks to be a pretty important, pretty intelligent, and a higher form of human being than those others over at that school..

Most parents are ill equipped to home school There have been "public" schools or group schools since the dawn of civilization. African tribes and stone age native Americans taught their progeny in groups to be hunters and weavers and basket makers. The best in the village would teach the youth their skill. Why or why do folk today think that mothers and fathers everywhere should be teaching their children algebra, chemistry etc. Home schooling is not about education at all but it is about controling a child and not letting him/her experience the world around him, creating a false little world right at home. Mike did you and Archer keep a picture of a kneeling in prayer Washington in your childs bed rooms. I believe Archer is a non believer so he probably would not do that.

Where you guys may be erring especially Mike is in his failure to recognize nuance and cultural syncretism. That is when people or as Robert said selves take sentiments, ideas and values from two or more belief systems and meld them into a new belief system. Christianity is interpreted by numerous people in different ways, so many denominations disagree with each other on significant parts even of the bible, so with socialism. Socialism written small with an s instead of an S is simply a recognition that "no man is an island unto himself". It is a recognition that we can and maybe should do things together. When the pioneers circled their gons during an Indian attack they were being socialist. Mikes postings of definitions reminds me of the Communists or Socialist pigs in Orwells 1984, No nuance, no thinking, just unblinking servitude to the posted definitions. Good stuff Robert.

Classroom education is designed to get each student up to speed on a particular body of knowledge. This concept goes all the way through higher education. Most professional societies dictate the curriculum, ie AICPA, medical and dental groups, engineering etcetera. Thus a student is required to learn what has gone before. Education in the classroom and in books is the cheapest way to learn a profession or the skills needed for life. If an individual had to learn all that is in books and the classroom on his own by personal experience and experimentation without the benefit of those who have gone before and book learning where in the hell do you think we would be. Gatto I understand taught in public education all of his life. The criteria Gatto refers to are not denied to public school children. They have libraries and parents to direct them outside of the classroom to museums etcetera. Some choose to be self directed and some don;t. Many educators of course want to make straight A robots out of everyone. I agree with him that self-directing, searching and questioning is the path to awareness, That school prevents this I dunno.

Your last sentence seems to say that public education was okay when you attended Anon. I appreciated mine also, although the grown ups at the time thought we were all a lost generation. This idea that every knew generation and their school system is going to the dogs is not new. Every one things their progeny is precious above all others and resent sending them to school "with those others" with "those socialist children". Many still survive a "public" education and learn the joys of independent study. Thank God not all do. Wouldn't it be a boring world if all kids were straigth A students. We would be a nation of robots which I think is what some would have us be, as long as all the robots thought like you and had the same opinons and political beliefs of Warren. Mike wants all kids to somehow "worship" at the painting of Washington kneeling in prayer at Valley Forge. Remember that this is a painting, not a photograph. We have no knowledge whether he posed for that painting or whether or not anyone actually saw him do that. For all we know it could just be a symbolic painting for spreading propaganda or mythology about Washington but never mind Mike wants kids to be beat over the head with it so to speak.

Have you all never heard of the Christian Socialists in Germany and other European States. There are forms of "socialism" everywhere. Part of our problem is simply vocabulary. Warren I did not know that I was squealing alone nuanceing. Have you ever heard of nuance Warren? I doubt that an absolutist such as yourself has..

The founders and framers were circumspect men who did not wear their religion on their sleeves. They knew for the new nation to be successful with numerous denominations and sects it had to be politically above religion so to speak. I feel certain Mike that while you would like history to be more emphasised in todays schools (at least history the way that you know it) you probably don't want to personally pay for. I was only suggesting Mike that 500 years from now Old George will not seem as important as he did to Americans in the 1800s, and also less than he did to you and I when we studied him. Only downhere in the Good 'Ole South are old times not forgotten. Time marches on my friend time marches on. PS: I grew up in Philly and visited Valley Forge so the impression and history is probably stronger with me than with even many adults my age let alone todays young children.

BS. Any class room has the tendency to stifle variety and institute social control. Classes are about a group of people getting their minds around a particular body of knowledge. Such a system will always instill a certain uniformity.That is why some folk send their boys and girls to finishing school. A true education including a public one should instill in the student a joy of searching for knowledge outside of class. I would suggest that the more private and specialized schools are that way for the sole purpose of targeting a student to a particluar mind set while the large public school has diversity of student body and teachers, the teachers do not have to take a litmus test concerning their religion or politics etcetera.

I don't tjhink Gamsci was talking about religion or Christianity so much as he was THE CHURCH. Anyone who has studied history knows that Augustine and Mohammed were both and fundamentally about control not freedom. The Church as we all know picked the rulers in Europe for a spell, and The Church in France owned a significant part of the property and together with the King and so called nobility ran the country. The people were out in the cold as usual. Voltaire, no socialist him, said "crush the infamous thing" in reference to The Church. So give the socialist a break, he isn't saying much more than Voltaire, or the Pilgrims and Quakers who all abhorred what The Church had become, an albatross around the peoples neck and anything but a champion of freedom.

He has got it all wrong! Early Christianity had a strong "socialist" mentality. They shared with each other, they preached humility and service to others, It was taken over by the rich and powerful especially in Rome in order to continue the subjugation of the people. Jesus attacked the established hierarchy of the day of the Sadducess and preached a universal brotherhood. The divide and conquer was done by those in power to prevent "power to the people". Americas Christian start with the Pilgrims, and Puritans was based on power to the poeple. The right wing continues to use religion to subjugate the masses.

Mike I just googled "American History teaching in US schools today". I clicked on one site that described the grant from the US Dept of Education to 123 out of 400 applications for the improvement of history teaching. It appears Sam is doing his part in teaching traditional teaching. Your objection to Washington and his horse is a little obtuse I think. I always admired the painting of Washington kneeling in the snow at Valley Forge. His religiosity has probably been a little bit mythologized but I take second place to none in saying that he was a great man and humble leader. As time marches on I think it is a natural human trait to downplay the past. The further away it is the less relevant it may seem to many. Maybe you are showing your age my friend.

What is to be avoided by a free and thinking people is censorship. Jimmy I was simply trying to point out how folk demogogue the dicotomy of communism/anti-communism. The abuses of the industrial revolutiohn in England is what turned many against that system of tyranny over people. We have farmers co-ops and corporate farms in this country. We abhor the term "collective farm" as we called it in the former Soviet Union yet we have our own "collectives". All I suggest is intelligent dialogue and not the censorship mentality that Reagan would promote.

Mike can you prove that the study of Washington has been "removed from the young's study". I think the study of history, the good and the bad, in the end should make us "gooder". Maybe a little more cynical but ultimately better. The American people studied the history of the last eight years and then elected Barak Obama. So study of the bad is important also.

Marx and maybe not Lenin perceived a state or government imposed communism. They theorized that the modern world was on a path via the industrial revolution that would lead to greater distribution of wealth. They saw a Europe that emerged from feudalism to capitalism and figured it could advance to still another higher (in their value system) level of economic activity and success. Marx and Engels generally perceived that this "advancement" would mostly occur peacefully from the ground up, not from the top down via dictatorship. For sure Americans ownership of the means of production through stock companies could be described as "people owning the businesses" if it were not for the frequent rip offs by the fraudulent "capitalists". The question is did Reagan ever read or really think about anything. (The best anti-communist I remember was a guy who had a Christian Church and College under his contol in Oklahoma I believe. He had to gospels religion and anti-communism. He had a great following around the country until a male and female church/college couple got married and revealed to each other that the Preacher/Anti-Communist had slept with both of them. Sadly it is often good business to be both noticeably religious and anti-communist.) It worked well for Reagan and Nixon too!

So all folk who have governemnt are commuinsts I guess in J Carlton's weird little world. ( I think subconsciously I knew had he actually thinks along with a few others.) Communities run their public affairs all over the world. Of course community is the root word fro communism and that is unforturnate because community action is much different that what Mr. Carlton would like to imply. Basically I think J Carlton is and some others are just misanthropic sociopaths.

You are unable to distinguish between the legislative and the executive branches of government Ben. Why am I not surprised. Democracy is the means of enacting law. The enforcement of the law should be efficientl and evenly applied, using the principle of due process. Failing to apply the laws as passed causes severe problems. Just check out the failure to enforce immigration law. Think again Ben think again. Democracy for legislation, and efficiency for enforcement and governance.

Who should run caves. The remaining cave is protected by the people through their government from the pigs who would destroy it. I agree with Ben that not all people are evil but people will deteriorate towards evil if it is not confronted and opposed. People united (government) confront the cave rustlers, traffic violaters etcetera. Left to themselves without a reasonable amonut of governance people will destroy this planet.

Don't know when Jefferson was more wrong. Peaceful transitions of our government is something all Americans should be proud of. The people rule in America.

Sounds like Murdoch and Fox to me! Thanks Jack for reminding us what this blow hard really was. Was it the media that exposed him, that is what he is probably complaining about.

There is no middle ground for Mike, He repeats his same phraseology ad infinitum like some kind of android. He appears to already lost his freedom to think and express himself. Does he repeat this mantra in an attempt to achieve power rather than to be a reasonable thinking person.

I disagree with you E. Archer! As far as government functionaires their job is to apply the law evenly and efficiently to all.

Ho Hum! Just a lot of pablum for the childish faithful. Never forget he endorsed Clinton. This is just political nonsense speak. It hit me clearly on Saturday why govenment is needes. I visited a State of Florida run cave. The guide said that no one was to touch anything inside the cave. He said the other caves in the area had been closed and sealed becasuse "free" individuals had rippped off many of the the stalagtites and stalagmites. This is a great example why government is needed, government is not evil people are evil.

Warren we can write, call and petition our Congressmen to cut spending and to increase taxes and do what ever it takes to balance the budget and pay down the debt that we have incurred. We have aided and abetted Washingtons frivolousness by electing tax cutters like Reangan and Bushes who did nothing but sell us down the river of debt. We elect these guys we must hold them accountable.

Clinton is right on! Bush said "Read my lips no new taxes" and then got elected and raised taxes. Clinton said elect me and I will sign the Brady Bill. He was and he did. Clinton was the most intellectually courageous men ever in the White House. Bush I and II were just the opposite!

Reagan was wrong with his poetry about a shining city on a hill. I mean what is that all about if not some socialist pie in the sky concept, is it any different than LBJ's Great Society? Regan was wrong about most things that is why the Republican party (which is not a real party anyway) failed to defend Reagans tacky poetic construction. The Republican party as far as we can tell has ceased to exist or has become totally dysfunctional, hell they have Sarah don't they? They deserve their fate just like Reagan's poetry and his leading us into massive debt deserve to be eternally lambasted.